Air cooled 2000 hot start continual problem

[upson_downes]

Whereas when the engine is cold it fires up at the turn of the ignition key, once it's hot and ignition off there's no chance of restarting for up to 90 minutes (e.g. after 20 minutes driving up and down the mountainous roads of West Wales or half hour's run on the flat).
When it won't start like this I turn the key and nothing can be heard turning over, I can only just about make out the faint sound of what might be fuel being pumped.
Serious problem re. refuelling or any other reason to stop and turn egine off!
I see from other forums I'm not alone with this problem - but there's barely any agreement as to the solution.
Initially when it happened I called out a breakdown service (twice) - first time since my being in a remote place, after more than an hour had passed without them arriving I tried the ignition and bingo it started again the instant the key was half-turned, so off I went after a call to say 'how can you know what to fix with everything running A-OK?' not wanting to turn engine off to be stuck again. Second time the different breakdown guy said as the earth nut was under a mound of rust he'd clean and fix it to different unrusted position (it snapped off when he tried to turn it), but it transpires it wasn't the fault causing the problem. To be fair he did add it was only a chance it would fix it and at least this would then be eliminated as a possible cause.
The (relatively - ha ha!) local VW specialists to me are scratching heads and shrugging shoulders using the words 'it might be' a lot or even 'Uh?!? - never come across this before!'
On some forums people say they have shelled out a fortune replacing this and that (as well as on labour) to no effect. Shudder!
Meanwhile I daren't go an a long journey and am bricking it thinking even on a not so long one what if I stall it somewhere potentially calamitous re. health of body/limb or bank balance?
It's a re-con engine with approx 4000 miles on it. VW specialists tell me it sounds good and runs well.
This leaves me with just 2 words to utter - "PLEASE HELP!"

[Tobyt25]

I had this exact problem, thought id try getting a new battery. When i checked the size needed at a Halfords i realised the one that should be in there was double the size. Never had a hot start problem again.

[mike the van]

There will be others out there who may well correct me, but sounds possibly like a 'hot start' relay needs fitting , essentially the solenoid in the starter motor because of the aged (corroded) wiring and length of wiring has a voltage drop and doesn't switch properly the main load for the the starter. The relay fitting allows the full 12v to the solenoid to be switched by the ignition key remotely.
If the starter motor is original clean up all the contacts and the braided earth bond from the gearbox to the chassis.

If the solenoid is original they can get tired, and the contacts inside get carbonised and generally full of crud, you can take them apart and clean up, if you are confident and have a decent soldering iron. There is advice on the web for that.

Good earths and contacts are essential for good starting.

Plenty of references on the samba.com for bays etc, helped a lot for my aircold.

Cheers
Mike

[California Dreamin]

Hi there!
Please Introduce yourself properly, being new to the forum.

As you put it' there is barely an agreement to a solution' because....there isn't just ONE solution but the potential of many.

It will be: one of the following: I will try and put them in some sort of order (the most likely first)

1) The small 'trigger' terminal on the starter solenoid (poor connection or the wire has internally corroded/gone rotten)
2) The braided copper wire that goes between the solenoid and starter body has all but turned to dust (very common)
3) The main earth points are badly corroded, especially the one on the gearbox nose, this includes the braided cable itself (favored fix is to leave the original and fit a second braided cable from the bell housing (near or on the starter) to the chassis.
4) Internal starter fault, brushes/armature excessively worn, main bridging contacts in the solenoid badly eroded.
5) Poor battery condition, electrolyte levels low, battery capacity low (not sufficient cold cranking amps) battery had its day & needs changing.
6) Main battery positive feed wire rotten (the copper blackens internally and its capacity to carry a high amperage decreases with age)
7) Battery terminals and their connection to the feed and earth wires (especially if they have been replaced with poor aftermarket terminals) with around 150 amps flowing on start all these connections have to be in A1 condition.
8b) Starter Oilite bush that supports the nose of the starter armature has worn oval (this is usually responsible for slow cranking rather than non start but can contribute)
9) Ignition switch internal failure, again very common or should I say, that their replacement is not surprising given the age and their difficult job. Often the fault will be intermittent and unexpected although typically in the latter stages of failure, movement to the key will often result in the fault revealing itself.
Note* the rear engined/front battery setup found on the petrol engined T25's promotes massive voltage drop because of the long battery cable runs involved. Some users report fitting a relay at the rear to trigger the solenoid can improve solenoid reliability (often called a hot start relay)
Yours does sound like a heat related issue any auto electrician will tell you, increase the heat in a wire increases its resistance. Therefore, any circuit 'on the edge' due to age and condition, will fail more often when hot.

I hope this helps.

Martin

[jamesc76]

Nice first post!

[upson_downes]

Thanks very, very much Martin and apologies to you and all others who've read this post for my ignorance re. forum protocol. I really should have known better as I have come to realise that T25ers and for that matter V-dubbers exist in two worlds one of which is their own unique community, and a very supportive, heart-warming one at that.

My actual name is Peter, 62 years young living on the west coast of mid-Wales and the newish (a few months) owner of a T25 high top 2000 air-cooled petrol wonder of the world. Actually it's the first four wheeled vehicle for which my name's been on the logbook.

It's already been a bit of a rollercoaster, right from the off. I bought my entirely matt royal blue van having used sites like this to try to find out how to go about it in the right way, not having a clue myself or knowing anyone who had. I went for one with a recon engine and 5K worth of receipts for parts over a 5 year period. And forgot in my excitement when checking it over to pull up the rubber floor mats etc to check for puddles...

After paying out 4.5K I set off towards home from the Forest of Dean. I thought this long drive would be a good thing to get me used to driving something the nearest to which had been my work's old Leyland Sherpa back in the 80s. Approaching Monmouth (not having gone far) when going uphill the van juddered going uphill with quite a tremor in the steering wheel. Then backfiring and losses of power. After about 20 miles the van was prone to all of those with the losses of power increasing. I pulled into a layby and called the seller for advice - they were speechless and couldn't help, sounding genuinely upset (that had said it hadn't been out and about since last winter except for our short test drive).

Luckily I was on very minor Welsh mountain roads for most of the four hour journey back, a slow, kangarooing, machine-gun backfiring nightmare. Once home my head was in my hands - what had I done what miseries had I brought on myself for being so stupid as to spend all that money on something I knew sweet Fanny Adams about?

The next day I did what most of us do when clueless and hapless - turned to Google. It told me there were lots of us in the same boat most of them stuck in it, actually. Many had spent large sums getting nowhere. I realised I had to find a VW specialist and the nearest appeared to be Keith aka Taffy of Wrexham’s Just VW (a mere 90 mns away). Coincidentally he was due in my area within a few days, and when he kindly visited he fixed the problem in a jiffy (air/petrol mix was maladjusted!).

Since then we have toured Nth Wales, gone on overnight stopovers, day trips, short out and abouts to coastal towns for evening meals, falling in love with the van and the increase in a leisurely life with which we can escape the drudgery of day job etc.

Now the van is up at Wrexham with Just VW, where he's now finished chopping out the rusted bits of windscreen sill, floor seams, door bottoms, etc (etc etc - I can see and other things becoming part of a "Forth Bridge" scenario!) and welded plates to fit and is now customizing the interior to my own peculiar needs and wants. I need to use and sleep in it at various times throughout winter to visit the dispersed grown up kids and grandkids so it's being lined with purpose made Welsh sheep’s' wool courtesy of Amdro Alternative Camper Customization in Caernarfon. (Found out about this as best option through Club 80-90.) Have had imported from USA (GoWesty) rear seatbelts that feed up through and down out of the upper storage space so allowing three-point belt for a passenger next to built in cupboards sink etc. I'm sound-deadening road noise by having Just VW apply a membrane originally designed for the airborne noise suffered by aircraft, from Custom Audio Designs Ltd of Petersfield,Hamps, now being applied to the floor and wheel arches. (Also found out about this as best option through Club 80-90.) I've just acquired two semi-vintage Genesis amps to drive Alpine CDE 174-BT head unit and JL Audio C2-650 tweeters/woofers and sub. At the same time the hot start problem will now - thanks to you guys and especially Martin - be fixed and lastly I have to tell you back in the day I was an original hippy and the van will allow mw to revisit my youthful roots by having all of its its seats and floors covered with deep pile vintage Afghan and Persian rugs with the limited wall space filled with vintage Indian and Uzbek tribal hangings and embroideries - light the incense, maaan! All of which will add to the wool-lined, aircraft-level soundproofed cosy womb-like interior with natural sound stereo experience of being - in the words of 60s band Canned Heat - on the road again.
I hope you will have got an idea of how quickly the van has established itself as a big thing in my life/our lives and how it will undoubtedly add to quality of said lives.


And eventually I'll get round to the exterior!


Cheers, all, I'll exchange greetings on the road!

Peter

Hi there!
Please Introduce yourself properly, being new to the forum.

As you put it' there is barely an agreement to a solution' because....there isn't just ONE solution but the potential of many.

It will be: one of the following: I will try and put them in some sort of order (the most likely first)

1) The small 'trigger' terminal on the starter solenoid (poor connection or the wire has internally corroded/gone rotten)
2) The braided copper wire that goes between the solenoid and starter body has all but turned to dust (very common)
3) The main earth points are badly corroded, especially the one on the gearbox nose, this includes the braided cable itself (favored fix is to leave the original and fit a second braided cable from the bell housing (near or on the starter) to the chassis.
4) Internal starter fault, brushes/armature excessively worn, main bridging contacts in the solenoid badly eroded.
5) Poor battery condition, electrolyte levels low, battery capacity low (not sufficient cold cranking amps) battery had its day & needs changing.
6) Main battery positive feed wire rotten (the copper blackens internally and its capacity to carry a high amperage decreases with age)
7) Battery terminals and their connection to the feed and earth wires (especially if they have been replaced with poor aftermarket terminals) with around 150 amps flowing on start all these connections have to be in A1 condition.
8b) Starter Oilite bush that supports the nose of the starter armature has worn oval (this is usually responsible for slow cranking rather than non start but can contribute)
9) Ignition switch internal failure, again very common or should I say, that their replacement is not surprising given the age and their difficult job. Often the fault will be intermittent and unexpected although typically in the latter stages of failure, movement to the key will often result in the fault revealing itself.
Note* the rear engined/front battery setup found on the petrol engined T25's promotes massive voltage drop because of the long battery cable runs involved. Some users report fitting a relay at the rear to trigger the solenoid can improve solenoid reliability (often called a hot start relay)
Yours does sound like a heat related issue any auto electrician will tell you, increase the heat in a wire increases its resistance. Therefore, any circuit 'on the edge' due to age and condition, will fail more often when hot.

I hope this helps.

Martin

[T25Kenward]

I had the same problem and replaced everything new starter motor and bush, new battery, new starter cable and all new earth's and none of this fixed the problem.

I then fitted a hot start relay kit from here http://www.vwjim.co.uk/ourshop/prod_278 ... t-Kit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have not had any problems since.

I hope you get it sorted.

[California Dreamin]

A relay to switch a relay...kind of ironic really but is said to work for some.
The solenoid on the starter does take a fair bit of power to initially switch & then to 'hold down',however, if the wiring to the solenoid is all in good condition there shouldn't be a need to 'boost' the switching voltage.
If you are not prepared to 'fix the fault' then the 'sticking plaster' may well help. I guess you can see where I am coming from with this. Besides, as I pointed out, voltage drop to the solenoid is just one possibility albeit a real one.

Martin

[CovKid]

Check these cables as a priority Peter - including battery terminals:

http://wiki.club8090.co.uk/index.php/VW ... ain_cables" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you find any that are suspect or just twisted wires clamped under a washer, sort them for good.