VonOettinger '91 Multivan Syncro 3.2 WBX6

[HarryMann]

Gear selection
1st gear is from time to time somewhat fiddly to find. Appearantly, this became an issue after the overhaul of the gearbox.

It almost certainly won't be the box or build itself...

It almost certainly will be the selector mechanism, either the detent box under the cab, or more likely, the exact alignment (or wear of) the rear selector shaft

Hopefully, these links will help to shed light on the issue...

https://club8090.co.uk/wiki/Ge ... _improving
https://club8090.co.uk/wiki/Ge ... reluctance
https://club8090.co.uk/wiki/Ge ... air_Kit_01
https://club8090.co.uk/wiki/Ge ... nge_images

But of course, never say never, and you may know something about the re-build I don't, but I'd say very unlikely that's internal....

Can even be simply the juxtaposition of the selector rod bracket on the gearbox flange

Merry Christmas, hope we see you over here sometime

[32wbx6]

Excuse me jumping onto this thread just like this...I am from South Africa and we have a couple of Syncro's here with the Oettinger Wbx6 motor in. I refer to your comment about the idle not being stable with these motors. Here in South Africa there is not one motor that runs satisfactorily at idle. They seem to surge and hunt quite badly, particularly when cold. Also we experience what we call "kangarooing"or surging at 1500 revs when de-throttling. The ONLY Wbx6 in this country to run properly is an imported one that was put together and installed by Oettinger in Germany. I have spent a few years now trying to get to the bottom of this problem. Oettinger tell us that they experience no problems in Germany at all.

I would be interested to hear from you of any improvements you are able to make with it on your vehicle. It is a beautiful motor but we wish we could get to the bottom of this problem. We are now coming to the conclusion that we have not all the componenents to run them here as perhaps in Germany having a very different climate and emmisions control standards, that perhaps they have extra oxygen sensors in the exhaust systems or something like that.

We run them off the standard wbx4 2.1i DJ loom with a wbx6 ecu card and air flow meter supposedly supplied by Oettinger originally. Is yours in Europe run the same way?

John

[VonZu]

You're very welcome jumping. Or kangarooing

I haven't done much else than driving with this car lately, as I'm currently fiddling with two other cars.
But I have been paying attention to the idling thing.
When cold, it's all up and down. But when warm, it can be dead stable.
I have discovered that I can trigger the instability at will. I only need to start something that draws some current. Like the heater. I switch the heater on, idle becomes unstable, switch it of, idle becomes stable. And as there are a few electrical issues on this one, thats probably where I'll start.

[HarryMann]

Sounds very like an ISU or Idle Stabilisation circuit problem then... ? and of course as well, temperature sensors and their wiring are always suspect in these situations.

[32wbx6]

Thanks for response, please update if and when you get any improvement, we have been struggling literally for years and have never solved it yet. Not just mine but all WBX6's over here. I started another thread on this forum re same subject and Aidan from UK mentioned that in our (South Africa's) case we may have a problem in that the 2.1 Digijet loom was made here in SA and was set up for SA conditions being low grade fuel, hot etc. The Oettinger ECU was probably more of a Digifant set up. We use only Digijet as we have no emmission regulations like in Europe.

The possibility exists that the pins from ECU etc may be different. I am checking this out currently as we have one fully imported 6cyl Syncro that was built in Germany by Oettinger themselves. The owner is allowing me to track all his wiring down and check his multi pin plug arrangement as its all German. His vehicle runs absolutely perfectly under all conditions. I am hoping against all hopes that we will finally discover a wiring difference within the loom itself or the multi pin plug. It may possible as our DJ motors here only use the single overun cutoff switch operating at idle and again at full throttle, whereas the 6 has the twin switch arrangement, so maybe different wiring or pin-outs then?

I'll let you know if I find anything next week. Your motor of course is European anyway so all this may not be relevant.

John

[VonZu]

I just jumped in on your other thread, and will be following it with interest.
I am not sure about this Euro vs. SA thing, as mine is built by Oettinger and have the same problems. But, of course, there might be different causes for the same symptoms.
Anyway, lets take the discussion in your thread. I think that's more tidy, as it specifically addresses this issue.

By the way.. I am very pleased that there are other forum active Oettinger owners. Been feeling a bit lonely lately

[VonZu]

It almost certainly won't be the box or build itself...

It almost certainly will be the selector mechanism, either the detent box under the cab, or more likely, the exact alignment (or wear of) the rear selector shaft

I think it's the selector mechanism at the box. The trouble apparently arose after fitting the modified gear box. I wouldn't think the mechanism under the cab should be affected much by that.

Hopefully, these links will help to shed light on the issue...

https://club8090.co.uk/wiki/Ge ... _improving
https://club8090.co.uk/wiki/Ge ... reluctance
https://club8090.co.uk/wiki/Ge ... air_Kit_01
https://club8090.co.uk/wiki/Ge ... nge_images

Nice! Found some useful info on my 1,9 as well.

But of course, never say never, and you may know something about the re-build I don't, but I'd say very unlikely that's internal....

Can even be simply the juxtaposition of the selector rod bracket on the gearbox flange

Merry Christmas, hope we see you over here sometime

There is a lot I don't know about this car yet. But I'll catch up in time.
And, eh, a well delayed merry Christmas to you too Currently we're thinking about vanfest 2012. I understand it's a 15-year anniversary.

[VonZu]

Added documents to first page of thread

[syncropaddy]

Added documents to first page of thread

Like the engine sticker ..... 91 RON Petrol!!

[silverbullet]

Added documents to first page of thread

Like the engine sticker ..... 91 RON Petrol!!

Should be quite perky if re-timed for 95 RON

[wbxr6 Dave]

Re engine hunting, it seems standard they all do that. Replacing the lambda and idle stabilisation valve improved the warm up cycle for me but didn't cure it. I've gone the next step forward and replaced ECU for mega squirt and replaced the AFM with a TPS on mine has cured the hunting issue, been a long journey getting there mind and plenty more to do.

Dave

[HarryMann]

Hi Dave, timely post there... and good info

Hunting - two types:-

1) Rhythmic (Brmmm, Brmm, Brmm ), rich -tends to get the better of you in low gears jerking the vehicle about when off the gas... neutral throttle

2) Erratic, longer period, splashy, weak - tends to no real power or torque and tendency to cutting out, whereas above tendency towards pulling well and staying running.

[Aidan]

might there be a fudge in the system to sort out the hall signal from the six pot for the essentially 4 cyl digifant ? bit like the vanagon symptom harness, something slipped into the wiring ?

[wbxr6 Dave]

Harry, your bang in the money with that!!!! These engine's tend to get overfeed with fuel by the ECU and love it while on the move, but coke up in traffic, giving the kangaroo attack. Modern ECU has made a big difference to the running and enables you to lean out the mixture.
Also another place to check before buying new bits, is the compression in the cylinders, they all need to be close in tolerance to each other, otherwise the ECU again over fuels. Hope this helps. Oh and check earth straps for all electronic engine bits.

Dave

[32wbx6]

I must admit that it seems my motor is clearly overfueling. Also very rich in start up cycle. If I lean it out though it seems to idle a bit rougher? So richness maybe what also carries through to causing the kangarooing at low revs as stated by Harry previously. NTC2 (sensor/sender below thermostat) is working but a local fix done here in SA apparently was to insert a half ohm or thereabouts resistor acrooss the wiers before the NTC2 was reached. NTC2 apparenlty about 2 or 2.5 ohms.This apparently stopped the over riching in cold cycle in the 2.1's. I am going to try it on the 6 and see if it will also dampen kangarooing? I'll let you know.

Incidentally we can no longer get the Syncro NTC2 temp sender anymore in SA. Only normal 2.1 which was clip in, ours for Syncro are screw in. be inerested to know if anyone else can get them?

Am been given the imported German Oettinger Syncro wbx6 on Thurdsay to investigate all its wiring and compare against standeard DJ wiring. Also not convinced anymore as you overseas seem to have same problem, so probably barking up the wrong tree. I will report back on findings.