Cylinder Liner's + Water jacket :shock:

[dubuffet]

Gents, Sorry to bore you's with this , bit of a newbie with the wasserboxxer, but hope some of you can provide some insight.

Ok, So long story short. - (location - Brighton East sussex - VAN - 1989 2.1 with 1.9 carb and running gear - Manny) Recently purchased.

Brought Van - Big smile on face.
Drove van 300 miles to my post code, Noticed she was overheating in the city limits, you know red lights. Simon Baxter suggested it could be advance timing, im convinced this is true as the engine turns over with the starter motor much easier with the coil lead off.... Also she is probably running to lean being the 1.9 gear on a 2.1 crank case.

Ok so first things first replaced the radiator as the 2.1s and 1.6TD's had the 40mm think radiator not the 34mm? Well, found a bunch of sludge and slim in the bottom of the expansion tank.. Joy, I was hoping it was from the old engine (as this one apparently was replaced 5000 miles ago with a working one from a wreckers) Alas! it was put there to fool me... Damn it.

Replaced the coolant with the the purple stuff from VW and the new radiator, temp dropped fan didn't even come on in the red light district. Wahoo.... Next morning, leaking coolant from the bottom of the crank case below the number 3 cylinder.

Ok that water jacket is F***Ked. - mechanic in my area wanted £600 to replace both sides... 0_o. Needless to say I have started myself. - Altho he did do a expansion gas test with blue dye that turned green prettly quickly, he said this confirmed that exhaust gas is getting into the coolant.. - this part i'm confused about unless I have a cracked head.

After snapping a two exhaust manifold bolts and one of the thermo housing bolts (joy) the head is off! Rejoice!

My cylinder liners refused to stay in the housing and are both fused to the gasket/head. - tried plusgas and light tapping with a rubber melee. wont budge.

I need to get the head(s) checked for cracks, skimmed ? etc and the liners removed.. I have new gaskets ready to go.

My concern is putting the liners back in... How? easy? slowly? I really don't have the tools or time to remove the pistons. Is it really necessary to remove/refit the pistons into the liners BEFORE putting the lot in the crank case. do I need to get new piston rings now that the liner is removed with the head?

Basically can i put the liners in with the pistons already fitted to the crank and then fit the heads ? - thinking I may as well do the other side while i'm there.

I will post pics of my the water jacket.... I have never seen anything like it..... any other pics can be posted if request. Any more info please ask sorry if I missed something major.

[Mocki]

thats a lot of questions!

Getting the heads off the liners.
We used temperature when it happened to us.
We submerged the heads in boiling water, and then immediately the barrels into ice cold water without getting the heads cool, and welted them with a wooden mallet.
The heads expanded, the liners contracted and the mallet shocked them apart.

you will neeed to put the liners back around the pistons with the pistons in situ, we made a ring compressor from alluminum. its a barsteward job .Dont for get to make sure you change the sealing rings on the bottom of the liners, and that they are seated.

you wont be skimming the heads, they will have tiny crack tween the valves, its normal.


look for tiny holes in the heads between the combustion and the cooling areas

[dubuffet]

Hi Steve,

Yes, that was a lot of questions. Cheers for getting back to me. Really appreciate it.I got the other head off, glad I did, two of the pushrod housing seals were slowly leaking oil AND the water jacket was toast also. Again both liners fused to the head. Had no luck with the (boiling and some tap )hot water (some ice - mainly tap) cold water trick. Don't want to damage them by hitting the them any harder. I would really like to get them both cleaned up at least- Flushed and tested and the liners separated - also need two cut/snapped bolts drilled out.. the bottom exhaust bolt came out on the number 4 cylinder with my bear hand, pretty sure that hole is going to be needing a heli coil.. I would do it my self, however I don't have the appropriate work bench/chems and tools( not allowed to make a mess more than I already have where this operation is taking place) Dose ANYONE know a good place close to brighton/East Sussex that can services heads/heli coils?

Here is some pic's so far.

The leak when discovered.


left head removed


Water Jacket


Gap between liners/cylinders


Condition of piston heads -not very clear.


Thanks once again. What about these guys? any one have any experience? http://www.pfeifferpartnership.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Or these guys? - http://www.millgapgarage.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oh here is how much crap came out of the gearbox.

[Hacksawbob]

Standard gearbox christmas tree, if slightly over-decorated.

[Mocki]

like Bob said, dont worry too much about the festive drainplug, its pretty much doing its job.....

im surprised you elected to do the job in situ, you will find it very awkward putting it back together with it in the van, and frankly its only 8 bolts and its out now!

the water jackets look quite normal for a engine with the symptoms you are finding, its not worse than usual!!
you are lucky you didnt get any snapping of the head bolts - beaware it may happen when you reassemble, go gently.

[kevtherev]

Me too I'm surprised you haven't took the engine out.
Skate board and eight bolts... out it comes

Re the studs
I would drill and tap to the next size up, simpler and less expensive.
8.8mm drill and a 10 mm tap

[Aidan]

if the engine comes out then Timesert at M8 imho. better than a helicoil esp on exhaust studs, going upto M10 you will have to drill out the manifold flanges and there isn't much meat on them to go that far also the bigger head of M10 nuts will foul the exhaust and or be nigh on impossible to do up, it's tight enough in there for M8s and helps if you have a cranked spanner for a couple of the lower ones

[mm289]

what the others said plus....

Liners seized into head is exactly the problem I had, the problem is they are already a tight fit around the top of the liner into the recess in the head and this has a tendency to corrode as well.

I tried penetrating oil, heat, rubber mallet etc and they refused to budge. In the end I put a trolley jack under one barrel and a very heavy weight on top of the other (beam on my 4 post lift). I then gently pumped the trolley jack (equivalent of about 1T). this just "cracked" the seal and i then used a pry bar between the liners to loosen fully.

The liners are very strong so you can be more aggressive with them than you probably think, if you do use the pry bar on the tags, be carefull to protect the surface of the head especially if you are levering around where the water jacket seals.

Replacing the rings is a matter of choice, depends on your budget and time available, if your compression was good before then you will get away with it.

When you clean the heads up, if you have access to a valve spring compressor then pop out and check the valves, the exhausts particularly are prone to burning out.

Getting the liners on with the pistons in situ is a bugger, frankly. Popping the pistons out isn't that difficult with a set of circlip pliers and a length of M12 bar and suitable washers. (see pictures on my thread here https://club8090.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... 7&start=15

There is a great video you can watch from Ben in Canada here (also worth the look for a load of other info) http://www.benplace.com/pistons_heads_video.htm

Now the liners are out you will need new top and bottom seals (green and black) as well as the metal seals that go into the head. Also check the lip of the recess in the head for damage where the liner has been corroded in and the face of the head where your new water jacket seal will go.

And finally - TAKE THE ENGINE OUT

You will break your neck/back/any joint you care to mention, trying to do all this in situ

HTH

MM

[mm289]

if the engine comes out then Timesert at M8 imho. better than a helicoil esp on exhaust studs, going upto M10 you will have to drill out the manifold flanges and there isn't much meat on them to go that far also the bigger head of M10 nuts will foul the exhaust and or be nigh on impossible to do up, it's tight enough in there for M8s and helps if you have a cranked spanner for a couple of the lower ones

Nice info Aidan - not seen these before so will have a go. Is this what you use on you 'boxes?

MM

[Aidan]

yes I use Timeserts to repair stripped case bolt threads - kit is quite expensive and the inserts themselves aren't cheap but I've not had one fail yet afaik and I've used them in a few odd situations and cut them down and they still worked, and the M10 ones Hacksaw Bob used to repair a stripped engine mount on a TD block.
Stripped M6 I tend to go upto M7 but that's cos I already use M7 on the cases and have the tap and M7 set screws in stock and there's enough material generally a stripped M6 will tap at M7 without drilling it out,
too often helicoils seem to come out with the bolt when you undo them - that maybe due to installer error, I have never used helicoils so I am not familiar with the exact methodolgy, they also seem to suffer corrosion due to water ingress which the timeserts don't seem to

[dubuffet]

Hi Gents,

Thank you all for you gracious wisdom of gargantuous proportions.

I have taken the heads - (with liners attached) to a head specialist to get them cleaned up and tested for leaks/wear etc. Not to mention separating the liners, and fixing the threads. they seem very capable and had all the workshop kit/machines.... not to mention rows and rows of spotless heads....
I was franticly attempting to mark each liner with a cylinder number and the top, so that I could fit them back in the same place they came from.
The guy was like, don’t worry, just put them back in no problem. And starting cleaning the heads removing any markings I managed to get on them with my silly marker.

- In light of this, shall I buy and fit new piston rings? makes sense seeing as I am here. - Should I clean the piston heads? - (if so with what)

Anyway I will post pics of the heads once I get them back to show their hard work and give the contact information. Should they be as good as they seem might be worth putting them on the wiki.

- Ps cant wait to show the old owner this thread once im back up and running, he is convinced that the engine was solid. I even tried to be nice about it, like "hey man, I own it now, dont care whats wrong going to fix it. Could you atleast give me any information what so ever to assist so i can make it all right."- - "Ah ah na no idea, its sweet as a nut mate." AHAHAHH!!

[dubuffet]

I have answered most of my own questions from above. I *THINK* that this link http://www.vanagonparts.com/tech_index.html is in the wiki and most likely most of the contents.

I am going to get the liners ""honed" (new words ) and get a fresh set of piston rings before putting the lines/heads back on. (with the engine out )

Would it be wise to use the hatch cover on the bay and the place the engine in the back on the van with few blocks of wood in the right places?

Cheers again for all your input post and pre my post. Big help.

[mm289]

Sounds like a plan.

Re the rings, take the pistons out to do this, some instructions on fitting rings on the Benplace link I posted earlier.

You could put the engine in the back of the van but you will inevitably get oil in the van - much better on the kitchen table

MM

[dubuffet]

I went to check the Engine number on the block on the oil breather mount... It’s been shaved off!!! all it had left was the number 193 after the logo...

The old owner said it was a 2.1 with the 1.9 running gear (carb etc) now that I have to replace the Piston rings I don’t know which ones I need!
the bore diameter is 94 mm - but both the 2.1 and 1.9's are 94mm... However the rings are slightly different apparently. Anyone able to help? Any Idea How I will find out what rings I need?

[toomanytoys]

Measure the rings on the piston,,,

But, looking at the pic of the pistons, they look like DJ ones....


VW Heritige list the 2.1 rings as all the same...
I cant check EKTA at the mo...

Machine 7 list
2.1 as 1.75mm, 2mm, 3.5mm,

1.9 as 1.75mm, 2mm, 3.5mm