Starter/non starter - holiday woes

[fairwynds]

Hi everyone
Im currently having a total sense of humour failure with my van (1.9 DG 1985 LPGd).
I recently posted about replacing my starter motor when that packed up, and the abridged story so far is

1) Van wouldnt start so after making some checks and finding the wire from solenoid to starter was broken, the starter was replaced (with a recon Lucas one from local motor factors) Instant success!

2) Two days later (and luckily, whilst parked outside the same parts shop) van wouldnt start again. Turn key and not even a click from solenoid.
Swapped 'faulty' starter for another and hey presto, it worked again!

3) About a week later, wont start again. Followed advice from ppl here and duly checked earths at starter (ok) and at battery (needed cleaning and replaced bolt/washer under drivers seat, tidied up battery and post connections. Van started again and I thought that was the end of the problem.

4) Since then there have been a few occassions when van hasnt started first, or second time. A couple of times I resorted to the old method of putting in gear and rolling forward to hopefully release the solenoid if that was sticky, worked sometimes, not others. . . .

...yesterday it wouldnt start several times, nothing at all on key. Then, it fired what I imagine was the solenoid/starter (?) and a high revving whirring could be heard from the back, which wouldnt stop even when I switched the ignition off!!!!!

Im stumped, and Im supposed to be going on hols tomorrow! Not a happy (Easter) bunny at all!

The shop say they will replace the starter again - but Im dubious that it can be a series of faulty starter motors....?!

Has anyone any ideas that I can try? Has anyone had this sort of problem before?

Thanks

[jamesc76]

did you replace the bush????? plus did you clean up the earth on the front of the gearbox??

[fairwynds]

Hi James,
yes, the oilite bush was replaced (although, unless you can tell me otherwise, thats only designed to support the end of the starter pinion/shaft when it engages, to stop the sideways forces?)
The gearbox earth was done about 3 years ago, when I did the rebuild. It looks sound, and I have made sure its tight at both chassis and gearbox. TBH I did remove it, so I could start there...

[R0B]

Dodgy ignition switch?

[kevtherev]

after two starters I would be thinking the same

[fairwynds]

Dodgy ignition switch?

Rob/Kev
Ive just heard from a VW mate that the ignition switches (which are also used on VW cars of the era?) are prone to breakdown inside. He's got a new one that he's bringing round tomorrow morning to try....so Im off out to dismantle the steering column now and recheck that earth. Apparently Im looking for a little grub screw that holds ignition switch together!
Thanks guys.... will let you know.
ps - he also reckons that a separate earth wire from engine case to battery wouldnt go amiss......
FW

[Mocki]

dont waste your time and money with long "earth" wires...... just replace the gearbox nose earth strap and clean to bare metal where it joins both ends..... using the vans body as negative is far better than "independently earthing" everything........ much less voltage drop for a start.....

ignition switches are less than a tenna iirc

[California Dreamin]

Remove in order.

Steering wheel (make sure you take it off in it's straight ahead position so it can be replaced the same.
The column shrowed
3 small flat headed bolts that hold the switch gear.
Plugs on the reverse of the switch gear.
The security bolt on the steering lock clamp (this will chisel around and can be replaced with an ordinary bolt on rebuilding.
Insert the key in the ignition (one click clockwise I think) to release the steering lock
Plug on ignition switch (under side of the ignition lock)
Pull off Ignition lock and clamp to gain access to the sigle philips head screw retaining the ignition switch.

Renew switch, rebuild.

Martin

[fairwynds]

Mocki and CD - thanks for replies....am off out to the van now, armed with tools and your knowledge....damn - I feel invincible now!

Cheers all.... if this works, Im buying.....

[California Dreamin]

Half hour job now you're invincible! lol
At at under a tenner definately worth a punt as they can be prone and do give these random start symptoms.
Martin

[kit]

The fact they are a stock item leads you to believe they are prone to breaking.

[fairwynds]

Ok, so I turn the key all the way and theres a definate 'click' from the back (starter/solenoid) when key goes as far as it can. Does that mean swith is ok and electric is getting where it should? Would the switch still be faulty if this is the case? (Prob a dumbass question my electicity and me go together like cheese and roof tiles!)

[Mocki]

it means the switch is working, yes.
you now need to check the power to the starter is getting there on the big leads.

is the battery fully charged ( still)

[ermie571]

FW,

I changed my switch when I had similar intermittant problems. The other tip I got was...when refusing to start...squirt a bit of WD40 on your key and try again. Cleans the contacts apparently. Got me started once or twice, then replaced switch before it packed in completely. Oh - and for me, turning the key over often started it....a good indication that the key, switch or barrel was on the way...fortunately the plastic switch sorted it.

Em
xx

[fairwynds]

So, today Ive still not left for my hols!
Together with Mr VW trained motor engineer pal (who worked for the big firm in the 1980s, so Im ever hopeful!) and together with the advice and ideas on here, we checked a few things:

Ignition switch - all ok. Pulled plug off back and ‘hotwired’ repeatedly, and still got about a 20% failure rate suggesting problem further down the wires. Mechanic chap has given me a new ignition barrel to keep in the van as a just in case, for the future.

Traced the black and red wire across to the push fit connector behind the fuse box - again that connector all ok.

Lastly we put in a temp 2nd earth, by using a jump lead from engine block to chassis (tow bar) and hey presto, all seemed ok….. Until it missed a start or two, again! Grrrrrrrr

***** Question for you: is there any other ignition relay in these systems, that we may have missed? (He thinks not)

So I was asked to remove the starter motor so it can be repeatedly bench tested, as he thinks it can only be the unit itself.

I was about to do this and noticed the nice shiny new spade connector for the ‘exciter wire’ at the solenoid was not exactly tight, so re crimped it and …… so far…… she has started every time (about 30 times in succession)….

However……
Both the motor factor people (very good folk) and the mechanic guy both state that because when it wont start I can still hear the accuator arm in the solenoid click in definitely, that its unlikely to be the fault, so we are back to testing the unit on a bench.

Finally - I have yet to take the starter off again, but will run van around for a few days to see if it fails to start again, just in case by some magic we have fixed the problem. Not ideal as no one thing wrong has been found yet! As a just in case, the shop has ordered a replacement unit (from a different manufacturer!) to keep in the van until such time as is needed…

Don’t know what else to try!

Keeping them crossed......