89 1.6td starting battery/starting probs??

[Big Boris]

ok here goes,
going back about a month ago we started having starting isues with our 1.6td 89 california .Sometimes it would start then other times you turned the key and nothing not a thing ,try again five mins later then ok again.then after a few occasions like this and then leaving for a week or so the battery was flat ,so removed and charged the battery in the house until full ,then tested the battery over 24hrs and all seemed ok not a great fall in voltage ,so put battery back in van and tried to start ,and again nothing ,so i thought it had to be solinoid sticking so tapped the back of solinoid and it started up fine ,happy days i thought it must be the solinoid .then came the snow and therefore van was parked up for about 2 weeks or so ,tried it again today and nothing so measured voltage on battery only to find it is flat again . we bought the battery in 2009 in france its a 540A 65 AH this was the nearest we could find in leclerc at the time not sure if it ideal or not ?..
so i am just wondering if i need a new battery or not ,will the cold weather have cuased the battery to go flat and not using it for a few weeks ,any thoughts and recomendations greatfully recieved
ta in advance

[kevtherev]

firstly what did you do about the starter motor ?

if the battery was flattened and you left it in the minus temps you can bet you've killed it

[Big Boris]

hi kev,
have not had chance to change the starter ,when i put the battery back in the van after charging it was charged rightup ,do you think not using the van and leaving it out in the cold weather might of ran it down or even killed it ?

[kevtherev]

I think so, others may not agree, but as it lost power, and lost it quickly, the Hydrometer reading would get lower and lower, eventually low enough to freeze like water, after that it's toasted.

[Red Westie]

Remove and charge it again, take it off charge, measure battery voltage after say a 6 to 8 hours....if it's in good condition you should see 12.6 volts or even a little higher.....now leave the battery for 24 hours, check the voltage again, it shouldn't have changed!
Now refit the battery but leave the positive terminal clamp off, now connect a multimeter (set to amps) between the clamp and positive post.
Be careful to make sure everything is turned off and absolutely do not try to start
Whilst the van is static and everything is turned off there should only be around a 200ma draw (that's 0.2amps, a miniscule amount of power) which represents the radio memory and clock consumption.
If you are seeing anything more than half an amp something is wrong.
The next step would be to leave the meter connected and registering the draw then pull each fuse one by one until (hopefully) the amp draw drops to the 200ma as described.
This way you can hopefully isolate the faulty circuit and pinpoint the fault.

Common to Westy's: leisure battery failure which then melts the split charge relay 'closed' which in turn flattens the starter battery. (worth checking)
Martin

[Big Boris]

hi red westy ,
thanks for your reply ,i charged the battery up again using the tronic charger i aquired from aldi a while ago ,it now reads 13.2 volts 14 hrs later it reads 13.1volts , i used a digital multimeter to take this reading with it switched to 20v setting is this correct ? .and also when i try and measure the ampage which setting would you recomend ?,
i wouldnt be surprised if the lesuire battries are fooked i had to charge them up from low last summer ,when surely they should have been getting charged by the split charger ?
will get the battery back in van today and try and diagnose as you said ,will let you know the outcome thanks again

[Big Boris]

right then,
got battery in van started ok just ,still think that the starter is sticking . read battery before start 12.98 then read battery when started 12.55, do you think thease readings could be down to the split relay isue you were talking about ?
just read voltage at liesure battery whilst engine running was 7v .

[Red Westie]

Things certainly start to become clearer now you have told us about the leisure battery only reading 7volts.
You need to remove the positive clamp from the leisure battery making sure that it is well taped up and unsulated....now what is the starter battery voltage.... running and static.
I've a feeling you leisure battery is kerfufled and may have melted the split charge relay closed permanently connecting both leisure and starter batteries (disconnected now)
Remember if you have left this connected to the vehicle the starter battery may well need charging again.

Martin

[Big Boris]

hi martin,
thanks for the reply just got home from work and was straight on it with the camp light on the drive .did exactly what you said disconected lesuire batteries(2 in series )behind seat and insulated well. battery before started engine 12.65 v started engine 14.4 V . reading after ignition turned off 12.85 v looks like you were bang on with that thanks allot your a star !
im hoping that was the cuase of the not starting isue aswell ,but when i turned the key there was nothing dead as a dodo ,thennext time i tried after tapping the back of the solinoid it started,
i supose i also need to buy a couple of new lesuire batteries and a new split charger too ,
thanks again,
ed

[Red Westie]

Yes indeed...sounds like you have more than the one problem.
Yes definately at least one new leisure battery, the split charge relay in it's standard form is a 5 pin 'double make' where both 87 & 87b terminals become live at the same time....NOT the more common 5 pin change over type where the live terminal swaps between the two outputs.
As for the starter...sounds like either worn bushes, poor switch feed (that single spade connection on the solenoid...needs to be cleaned/tightened or even a new terminal fitted but must be 100% sound electrical contact). Strip and clean starter.
Check all earth and positive terminal conections....again there are a lot of amps flowing so contacts need to be better than good.
Martin

[Big Boris]

i will try have a go at all you sugested at the weekend now as not ideal conditions during the week ,thanks for the advice again ,as far as the relay is concerned do you have any ideas where i can get one from ,or is it a case of hunting one down ,maplins maybe ?
thanks ,
ed

[Red Westie]

I had a quick look but the only one I could find was this....note both outputs(pins 87 & 87b) go live at the same time:


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5-Pin-Twin-Contac ... 5144353863

I have to be honest with you and say I would prefer the relay you choose is a little heavier duty than this one. Say 40A both lines (I think the original is 30/40A)

Martin

[Big Boris]

update on the split relay behind the drivers seat,
removed seat and found relay in question part number 411915511b (sr9813 12v max 30a ) ,tried to get one from vw today and they stopped making them in 2007 ,at that time they were priced at £ 24 , found one for sale in america for $50 !!!!,anyway had a look on gunzl s site and he has a replacement version priced at 7euros plus package 13 euro ,also looked on ebay ,and couldnt find an exact match as the original relay has a diode inbetween tab 85 and the coil, if that makes sense at all ,not sure even that gunzles has the diode as there is no picture of the configiration will have to check
ed

[Red Westie]

Well I know lots of people who have completly changed the relay type without any issues...the diode is obviously there to stop some kind of back feed but honestly I know lots of people who have used just standard 4 & 5 pin relays (4 pin with a piggy back terminal)
I found this one if it helps:
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/173

or upgrade to this heavy duty type and change the switched feed terminals (pins 30 and 87) to larger yellow spades (the two terminals that fitted on 87 & 87b twist wires together and put into one large yellow spade and connect to the single terminal 87).

See:

http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/171



Martin

[Big Boris]

That seems the way to go then ,thanks for finding those i think il go for the 30a one,save allot of money
il keep you posted on the starter motor ,started it last night no probs then tried again and almost caught then a whiring noise,mmmm ,will give it all a clean up at the weekend ,
thanks again ,
ed