T25, T4 - or something else...?

[AdrianC]

Yes, I know, stupid question... Just a bit biased, you lot.

But humour me.

We're looking at doing some fairly serious travelling through a lot of 2011 and probably into 2012. Nothing too "heavy-heavy" in terms of where we're going, but a good chunk of Western Europe and hopefully round the eastern end of the Med into some of the less iffy bits of the Middle East.

So. We need a home on wheels. Two of us. Used to canvas, used to slow vehicles, used to spannering, used to idiosyncrasies - but wanting "enough" space not to drive each other round the twist and to cook/eat decent food, wanting enough reliability that we won't be hating the thing before Dover, easy parts availability if/when they're needed, and - most importantly - the ability to fix it without needing to mortgage our souls to a diagnostic computer. We don't want to be hassling about with interior or structural work before we go.

The budget should, going by a good google, find us a decent T25, decent T4. We don't want anything high-top, for car park height reasons (as well as general aesthetics & aerodynamics). LHD would obviously be preferable, but we're used to being on the wrong side of vehicles. I'm agnostic on diesel or petrol.

So - sell me on a T25. (and feel free to sell me YOUR T25).

Does anybody know of somewhere, ideally NW of London, where we could go and prod and poke and sniff around a T25 and a T4 side-by-side? LWB T4s sound interesting, but campers seem scarce.

Any <whisper it...> sensible non-VW options that have escaped our attentions? My Citroen-centric sensibilities have wondered about a Relay/Ducato/Boxer base (C25/Express doesn't much appeal), and much as I hate the thought of the blue oval, the ubiquitous Transit makes a lot of sense. Or maybe a Vito/SWB Sprinter/LT?

[peasant]

We don't want anything high-top

I'd re-consider, if I were you ...for the following reasons:
- you're seriously limiting your available choice of vehicles
- you're losing out on storage, big time ...even if it is just a place to throw a wet coat out of the way
- standing room is going to be scarce as it is ...it's a nuisance if you have to create it first every time you want/need it

[R0B]

Sounds like a decent syncro is what you need.(if you can find one) Heres a good site to whet your appetite..

[eatcustard]

look at a f o r d

[..lee..]

what`s your budget.

[Aidan]

With what you say about spannering and slow vehicles and idiosyncrocies then a T25 definately fits the bill, I'd recommend a Westfalia conversion probably but I'd also look at Cathargo (eg the syncro on busman.be ) and be open to anything as a home brew done well could be a better fit with you and your wants needs, style etc....
but I'd try and buy it in the next couple of months and spend as much time driving it and shaking it down and fettling and getting down and intimate and dirty with it so that when you set off you are confident in the vehicles basic reliabilty, driveability and have been away in it enough to know what you want and need to take and where and how to put it. Bike rack or similar on the back with bikes or just stuff for the long distance touring, some big plastic tubs with snap tight lids that will fit on the front luggage carrier for doing the washing as you go and bob's your uncle. You'll figure out the minimum tool kit and spares too while you are familiarising yourselves, there's not that much needed and in the reasonably developed world pretty much anything you need to fix it can be had inside a week even if you have to order it from the uk, and the more simple mechanicals can be worked on by any old school engineers, be they marine, agricultural, or automotive so things can always be "temporarily fixed" properly if new part not available.

More space in most T25s campers than a short wheel base T4, nicer driving position and view afaic.
You want an awning so you can use outside space when available and desired - weather you go awning tent or just awning is upto you - tents can be left up on site as base which can be useful, but take up a lot of space in vehicle when not in use - roll out awnings can provide instant shelter extension, drying area, chill out space, shade and al fresco dining area that feels attached which can be easily rolled away and off you go again.
Work out your maximum 12 months tax and tested full of fuel ready to go budget, figure a grand for stuff you want unless you have everything, and take off another 4 grand, buy the best van you can at that price or lower then be prepared to spend most of the 4 grand on sorting the vehicle before you go. Anything you don't have to spend then sorting it is extra fuel money. Realistically a T25 is a grand a year to maintain vehicle, and a syncro half as much again to double - (Whatever anyone who runs theirs on £100/year including MOT test fee will tell you) - if you spend it before you go hopefully you wont have to curtail the trip cos it dies on you.
I've had my van nearly 5 years, impulse buy sight unseen german ebay, having had a couple of email contacts with the vendor, cheap flight to go and collect it, vendor totally helpful so we got it all registered in my name and insured with export plates and everything sorted, asssured me it would get me back to blighty and off I drove; only just got back due to old bodged expansion tank, fortunately air temp was sub zero, but since then I have done everything mechanical to it bar change the engine (150k miles WBX 2.1 MV )and I'm pretty confident that it will get me from A to B pretty much anytime anyplace anywhere, icluding challenging off road work, and get me home cos I can fix pretty much anything on it and because it's all been done fairly recently and with tlc (and copper slip/new fittings as required) it generally comes apart when you have to and without too much fuss. If I was going away for 18months I'd probably put in a new engine on mine, but only because it's got a weepy head nut and was K sealed as a temporary till I get time fix, 20 months ago Engine runs really well and no change in compressions in 6 years - I have german garage test results for it from before I bought it and it had been well serviced by VW main agent for first 9 years of it's life with record to prove.
T25s are totally workable on by basic mechanically apt peeps who know which end of a spanner is which, but they are also worked on by monkeys with big hammers and no aptitude at all, so be aware when looking at vans to buy.
Petrol, diesel, whatever floats your boat, personally I'm all for unstressed wbx (petrol and lpg) by choice, others like their Turbo diesel grunt, but I dislike the high compression stressed engine and very expensive and sometime troublesome pump and turbo - but if you needed an engine replacement finding a VW 1.9TD or TDi engine in a scrappy will be easier in most places than finding another wbx, but that's a pretty extreme event that hopefully good planning and prep will eliminate.

[Ian Hulley]

I agree with Aidan ... if you decide to buy a T25 maintain it correctly, run it, love it ... oh and leave a grand in the bank at all times ... because something could 'go' at any minute which will cost you that to have it fixed.

Ford build a good vehicle but they (and all the other options) are not built to the same standard as a T25. Many other options are easier to drive but MUCH harder to maintain as a diyer. As for the Citroen/Fiat scenario the Ducatos are the cheapest rolling chassis for the converters to work on ... let's see what the vehicle itself looks like in 20 years time. The big motorhomes will not still be in the marketplace by that time so their base vehicle is irrelevant.

Ian

[AdrianC]

Aidan - Cheers for that. Very useful, and fits with my initial preconceptions. We've already started looking - plan for departure is around May/June - so, yes, it'll be getting some proper shakedown. First camping planned is Derbyshire in early Feb, assuming one's bought by then...

[Ian Hulley]

No problem

[Cazz]

Hi AdrianC, welcome.
A high top as mentioned will give you more storage, you can also get a fiamma bag or box which straps or bolts to the fiamma bike rack to store bulky stuff in, but the total weight on the tailgate must not exceed 50kg I believe, the box would add a lot more weight and is bulky to store, the bag just folds up when not in use.

http://www.fiammastore.com/Fiamma-Stora ... argo-Frame" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DJ RYVESY]

stick to a t25,ive had a few t4s and use 1 for work at the mo but they havnt got as much room inside as the t25 and they dont look as retro as the good old t25,also i think that the parts for a t4 are well exspensive people on ebay breaking them for parts are takin the mick on prices,might be sellin my t25 if you intrested

[AdrianC]

Well, that's that, then. Mind made up. Ish. We've just been to see a Joker Hi-Top T25, and the guy also had a T4 AutoSleeper pop-top.

We can definitely live with the "T25-ness", and the difference in interior space (and quality - the Westy was much better built) was very, very noticable. So... <crosses T4 off list completely>

In fact, I liked the T25 a lot. This one was a '90 5spd 1.6TD with about 350k km on it, and drove nicely despite (according to "last serviced" sticker) having only done about 4k km since 2006. The steering was light enough, despite lack of power - albeit very, very, very low-geared - and it just "felt right". Not sure about this particular van, though - it "felt" steep for the condition, but maybe I'm expecting too much <shrug>. We'll see.

I'm still not sold on Hi-Top, but warming. Hopefully seeing a Carthago not-quite-so-high-but-pops tomorrow from the same guy. Trying to arrange to see a very tempting looking Joker pop-top, but the seller's away for another week.

[AdrianC]

I'm still not sold on Hi-Top, but warming. Hopefully seeing a Carthago not-quite-so-high-but-pops tomorrow from the same guy.

Very interesting indeed. The highish-but-pop-top seemed to be both the best and the worst of both worlds. The Carthago conversion seemed to be better than the T4 Autosleepers, but nowhere near as "right" as the Westy. Decisions get closer.

[AdrianC]

We don't want anything high-top

I'd re-consider, if I were you ...

And we have done. Big time.

We went to look at a 1.6TD pop-top this morning, then on to a specialist with a few for sale. A nice little line-up, one of each combination - 1.6TD/2.1, High- and pop-top.

And we're very, very, very tempted by the 2.1 high-top. Some serious thinking to be done, but I suspect we've found our future home.

You were all right. The storage options "upstairs" are just so compelling in the flesh.

[AdrianC]

It is bought...