1600 diesel (non turbo) reluctant start have changed glow pl

[dieseldave]

hello,
new member
been lurking for quite a while and have got loads of very useful info from here already many thanks.

I'm the proud(ish) owner of a 1600 diesel caravelle, a rash purchase from ebay.

now the van has always been a bit reluctant to start but now is getting worse (I'm guessing the slightly cooler weather is to blame)

I've put a new set of glow plugs in and this doesn't seem to make any difference.

The symptoms are turn ignition on turn to first position wait 10-20 seconds then crank.

without fail on the first crank almost immediatly the van fires once or twice then nothing, with motor still winding nothing. Stopping and reheating seems to make no difference, then need to wind for a couple of minutes (I kid you not) slaving to a large battery which I keep topped up, then finally engine will catch fire a couple of times, catch again fire a few more times until eventually the engine fires enough to overtake the starter.

have tried a direct connection from battery to terminal of first glowplug to ensure continuous glowpluggage but this doesn't seem to help.

does it sound like I'm down on compression (I suspect the head) and only after winding a lot I build up enough compression (as I'm typing this that hypothesis sounds daft)

a long bump start down hill seems to do the same.

once engine had run for a bit the van will start first time first fire - usually - although sometimes needs the application of the additonal battery. there seems to be no rhyme or reason.

any help, theories or advice gratefully received

if it is a duff engine...

what is involved in dropping the engine out and replacing with a doner engine...

I've looked through all the posts but can't seem to find a "how to replace the engine" like for like (I'm not into putting a 944 engine in... or a rover v8 slow and sure is fine for me cheers!)

many thanks for all your help in advance

I'm off out with the big battery again now...


cheers

DAve

[Titus A Duxass]

Have you checked the glow plug fuse?

[Krisis]

Hi Dave,

Check the relay and the amount of time that it heats for, stick an AVO / tester accross the buzz bar and earth to see how long it is on for?

Mine is on for 8 seconds and it fires up

Clean or replace the connector onto the buzz bar if needed

Whilst the engine is turning over release one of the injector pipes and see how it is, should be pressurised and a jet should spert out

What sort of condition are the injectors in? Are they OLD eg KNACKERED

It sounds like it could be a relay problem £10ish GSF, other suppliers are available.
Injectors V expensive to get reconditioned I have some old oneshere in my garage that could be tested if needs be.

Diesel pump BLOODY EXPENSIVE to get reconditioned again I have a pump here condition unknown again can be tested

Have you got the cold start cable in yours? it goes to the diesel pump and connects to a lever in between thw pump and the cylinder head. Changes the mixture and starts better when cold.

Have fun Kris

[kit]

Ok my turn

My glow plugs can take up to a minuet to warm up.

Are you using the advance lever before starting?

Try fitting a non return valve on the fuel line between pump and filter.

Drain/ replace fuel filter.

Check glow plug fuse/relay.

These are a few of the things I have gone through with mine.

Re reading your post I think the advance lever might not be being used that would defiantly give you the problems you describe.

[Louey]

D

It sounds like it could be a relay problem £10ish GSF, other suppliers are available.

GSF £19 with club discount

VW £55!!!!

[SplendiferousII]

Your relay seems to be on for an awfully long time. once again mine is now mofe than 6 to 8 secs. It sounds like it could be a injector issue as stated above.

I am only up the road in gloucester and have most of a spare engine inc head and fuel pump & could probably get hold of the injectors if needed (I gave them to MarT on here but dont think he used them.

Alternativley, stick a 1.9 na (1Y) Diesel engine in there well worth the time and effort.

[Louey]

are there not two types of plugs and relays??

One is the old standard ones that stay on for 30 secs, the other is the fast ones that stay on for less than 10 secs???

Don't know how to tell the difference or what is the different number/part number of the relay

[Krisis]

I got a good deal then
TTFN Kris

[randolph57]

I may be barking up the wrong tree but this sounds like a fuel problem to me similar to what i had on my turbo'd 1600. Mine would also fire immediately then stop and require cranking continually.This was due to an air leak somewhere from the injection pump back to the filter.
The cure is easy just buy a diesel non return valve(6mm) from e-bay and fit it close to the filter assembly-hey presto it stops the fuel draining back from the pump and van now starts first time-obviously check replace any defective pipes/connections first.Paid around a fiver for the valve!
Hope this helps

[Syncro G]

are there not two types of plugs and relays??

One is the old standard ones that stay on for 30 secs, the other is the fast ones that stay on for less than 10 secs???

Don't know how to tell the difference or what is the different number/part number of the relay

There was a slow relay and plugs used in early diesels up to about 81 acording to ETKA, but all the normal ones after that are the "faster" type plugs and that apears to be what all T3's got. The 2 types of the normal/late plugs only seem to differ in brand, were sold alongside eachother useing the same relay. All T3's use the same relay but later VWs use other relays, the main difference seems to be the later relays preheat less and then stay on once the engine starts for a few minutes. Ment to reduice starting time and settle idle quicker. Mines always had a later relay when I've had it, as its a very late van maybe its original. Replacements of that type ("102") can cost £1 from a scrappy. Used on most D/TD engines from early 90's. The "corect" relay for a T3 is used in some LT and T4 (1.9D) vans untill 1995, or any other VW diesel before about 1990, probubly slightly harder to find now unless you go to a van breaker.

The heaterplugs still run for about 10sec after the LED goes out so waiting a bit longer can still help if you know it'll be slightly grumpy when the light goes out. Always use cold start advance leaver - might not sound like it does much, but it does. (check its conected/moveing the leaver on the pump, its on the cylinder head side of the pump)

[Tug]

I would advance tghe pump slightly....Always worked on the old chaps worn out escort van..
Take of your timing cover...you will see 3 bolts inside the pump sprocket...mark with tipex the priginal position of the sprocket....then loosen off the 3 bolts and turn VERY slowly about 1 DEGREE and tighten back up...MIGHT work seems to help the old Ford engines as they became lazy with mileage.

Failing that could be down on compression.

[ringo]

I may be barking up the wrong tree but this sounds like a fuel problem to me

I agree - keep it simple.

I had exactly the same problem (and it was a biatch to sort). I had a leak in the fuel system (the plastic bit on the fuel filter (return connector) has cracked). Fixed that and it was sorted...

When you have ran the engine, and got it warm, does it struggle to start after that?

I used to be able to start it no problems straight away - but leave it 8 hours and i had to crank it for ages....

Ringo

[dieseldave]

Just fitted a non return valve, in the process found the last jubilee clip on the fuel line going to the pump was oversized and not doing it's job properly, put it all back together and VROOM! first time, it didn't even seem to have to bleed the fuel line (which I'd emptied during the non return valve fitting process)

YOU GUYS ROCK!! (and not just a little bit I mean full on ROCK! with one foot on the monitor and head banging kind of rock - although I don't condone this kind of behaviour)

Now if I can just stop oil haemoraging out of what seems like every part of the engine I've got myself a delightful motor

Cheers all

Dave

PS I can't seem to find an extra fuel/ cold start /excess fuel type lever anywhere on the fuel pump I'm either blind, stupid or both...

and my heater plug light doesn't come on on the dash, not sure if it's a duff led or what, as this is my first VW diesel, I've been doing what I've done with every other diesel I've owned and turned the ignition key one turn (till I hear a relay click) and hold it there for as long as I think appropriate (10 missisipi's usually) and then turn the key to wind the engine. Once I've bought myself a new multimeter (the last one wasn't waterproof....) with the aid of my glamorous assistant I will find out what electric is going where, how long for, and why...

In the words of Lou Reed - it's the beginning of a great adventure...