Blown cylinder head gasket. Crankhaft probs?. Advice PLEASE!

[feliz]

Hello, our cylinder head gasket blew in France (86 watercooled t25 club joker 2.1 petrol). Now back in the UK our local mechanic is not keen on fixing it, but recommends that the second head should be skimmed along with the other when fixed, also a latent problem such as the crankshaft could be in need of repair??? any advice would very much appreciated. Is this a major job, worth buying a recon engine?? on reflection I think I need a specialist to do the job, does anyone know of any in the Norwich, Norfolk area. Thanks very much for any help...

[toomanytoys]

Your mechanic is a "general mechanic" and prob knows little about the wbx engine...
its not possible to "skim" the heads in the traditional sense and he will soon see that when he takes it apart.. if the head is "skimed" then the water jacket gaskets will not be compressed enough to seal.. and he will soon see that when he fills it with water......

If he is an "engineer" then you can skim the head lightly but the head gasket/barrel seats also need machining to correct it, in practice this is costly and really not worth the hassle...

was it the head gasket or the water jacket that failed??

Crank.. well if you kept going with no water and really over heated it then the crank/bearings could well be in trouble..

in the long run its prob easier and more cost effective to get a rebiult engine (or have yours rebiult by somone that knows them) than to pay someone to mess about with yours..

[AngeloEvs]

Interesting, waiting for diagnostics on mine but, ToomanyToys, how can you tell if its the water jacket or the head gasket and what is the difference in terms of repair cost/difficulty? I have no idea about WBX engines so if the news is negative on mine then I too will be looking for someone in Norfolk.

[Mr Bean]

Interesting, waiting for diagnostics on mine but, ToomanyToys, how can you tell if its the water jacket or the head gasket and what is the difference in terms of repair cost/difficulty? I have no idea about WBX engines so if the news is negative on mine then I too will be looking for someone in Norfolk.

Part of the reason I got my T25 so cheap was that apart from needing a real dose of TLC it was suspected of having a blown head gasket. It lost its water to the point where it overheated and needed topping up several times on anything but a local trip. After replacing the heads with two reconditioned heads that came with the van the problem persisted. The tell tale sign was supposed to be bubbles coming to the header tank. However I determined that this was due to the somewhat Spageti Junction self bleeding water plumbing and looked elswhere for the problem. So I coupled my compressor to the system and at 1Bar, 14,7 lbs/sqin or one atmosphere I detected a slow weep at the pressure cap. This blue plastic part was obtained for about a fiver from GSF. I have kept the old heads which although having the permissable crack between the valves, were probably OK. And while not claiming to be a VW expert surely the heads could be lightly skimmed if the circular recess for the liner was also macined by the same amount. By the way I was able to replace the thin "O" ring at the base of the cylinder without uncovering the rings (Which could be a problem to get back in with the engine in the vehicle) by putting each piston to TDC while I did it. The "O" rings stretching over the barrel.
Cheers
Ken

[Laurie]

Cylinder heads don't usually blow due to head faults. The rubber seals blow because they are a crap design and the inner rings blow due to overheating or studs getting tired... also due to crap design.
If the inner sealing surface, where the metal rings go is undamaged then it is safe to gently lap the barrels back in and if the surface that faces onto the rubber is decent, ie: slightly pitted, you will find that Elring puts a black, non etching silicone into the head kits to take out the irregularity.
Being that the rubber facing surface on the head is not compression or a moving part, if the head has any deep pits in there it is perfectly safe to use something like JB weld to fill the pits. Then smooth it down and use it.
Bear in mind... The barrel facing surface must be undamaged. People often score them when taking the old head rings out and they never seal without machining.

Skimming is possible but care needs to be taken, not only to take the same amount off both inner and outer surfaces but also to make sure that only a tiny skim is taken. I recently had a major re-con in which had been skimmed so much that the tappets, not the screws were touching the valves!

I don't know what the crank problem is, but there is a crank problem on all the later cases. The thin wall bearings have far looser tolerances than the early bearings leading to the buzzer of doom coming on. So far, I have stripped a number of these engines and found that even with the buzzer kicking off every now and then, the cranks have measured to the 2.1645", the bearings have been new and the cases have been in perfect condition. The only other crank problem you might have is end float, which is easily sorted on your engine by replacing the outer rear thrust washer and re-shimming.

Get a 30mm schadek pump from GSF for the '71onwards air cooled engine and fit that.

[HarryMann]

Thanks, Wiik'd most of that

[AngeloEvs]

Wish I'd bought an Aircooled now! The more I read about coolant loss and possible causes the more it seems that the only effective solution is to have the problem diagnosed and repaired by those who are very informed and experienced on these engines. Thats a problem around here, they don't exist! So is the best solution to simply renew the engine for a RC unit and get your local garage to do the transplant or take it to the nearest VW specialist irrespective of where they are?

[Mr Bean]

Wish I'd bought an Aircooled now! The more I read about coolant loss and possible causes the more it seems that the only effective solution is to have the problem diagnosed and repaired by those who are very informed and experienced on these engines. Thats a problem around here, they don't exist! So is the best solution to simply renew the engine for a RC unit and get your local garage to do the transplant or take it to the nearest VW specialist irrespective of where they are?

Sadly enough and bearing in mind the time they stopped manufacure, the T25 is really in the specialist bracket. This means that as an owner you also have to be for the larger part the diagnostician and mechanic. Handing it to your nearest VW dealer for repair will almost invariably leave you wishing you hadn't. Fault detection by substitution is not a viable option with new parts being difficult if not imposible to get through the dealeship while the idea of plugging it in to a diagnostic box of tricks is not posible either. However I do believe there are both private individuals and small firms who have the knowledge and operae on reasonale hourly rates. You just need to spent time finding them. Having spent virtually all my life "fiddling" I do find it difficult to imagine how non-fiddlers can afford to get others to do it for them. However getting together with fellow T25ers on forums like this can be very enlightening and some of the more simple jobs can be tackled without recourse to the young men in latex gloves who work in a building with a bigger office than workshop. Moving on from the Haynes Manual to the Bentley worshop manual has certainly widened my scope.
Good luck anyway
ken

[HarryMann]

However I do believe there are both private individuals and small firms who have the knowledge and operae on reasonale hourly rates. You just need to spent time finding them.

Yes they do and 'we' should start compiling a better of compendium of who and where they are... for instance, I have one over the road, less than 100 yards away, who has an amzingly equipped workshop and can (and has many times) tackle anything from a 1960's Alvis 4 litre, to a 3 year olf gumma gumma whizzbang electronic nightmare. Anything newer thna that these days goes to the dealer under warranty (but then might come back to him when it ends up a mess 1 day after the warranty expires)..

So they DO exist, you just have to find them...

[AngeloEvs]

First, many thanks to all on this subject and I hope Feliz finds someone and lets us know if anyone is available in Norfolk. My experience of engine rebuilds is limited to the BMC A and B series engines and these are relatively straightforward and conventional. The idea of removing a 1.9ltr lump downwards without block and tackle on your own would be a completely new experience and, on the face of it, quite daunting as it must be a heavyweight. Others on this forum describe it as DIY job. The problem is identifying the correct causes of failure and rectifying them, add to this the potential problems encountered with sheared studs, corroded head bolts and I think many are put off by the possibility of an engine out, unable to proceed and wishing they hadn't started. But I take your point that the more independent and knowledgable you become about the WBX the more enjoyable ownership becomes.
Harry's suggestion of a Database of recommended garages is excellent and I hope it gets acknowledged.

[Mr Bean]

The idea of removing a 1.9ltr lump downwards without block and tackle on your own would be a completely new experience and, on the face of it, quite daunting as it must be a heavyweight. Others on this forum describe it as DIY job.
.

From my response to the previous quote:
(Well when I replaced all four rear engine mounts I dropped the rear cross member away from under the engine. Then when I had my gearbox fixed I undid the four fixings at the nose of the gearbox. I surmise therefor that had I done both jobs together my engine would have fallen out under the van. Having established that then guess that by disconnecting a few pipes and wires it would be posible to drag it out and Bobs your uncle. However some other wag will be better equipped mentally to talk you through that tedium. My point is that I supported the engine by building a simple bridge over the engine cover aperture and used a string hoist to support the engine. Take this a bit further and you could lower an engine to the ground and roll the van away from it.) As it happens I use the multiple pully string hoist for lifting all sorts including the 1600Xflow in my boat and the engine in my mates big Volvo saloon. I admit the idea of supporting all that weight on string the size of a washing line could phase those who don't understand the physics behind it.
Cheers
Ken

[AngeloEvs]

Feliz, been searching and this is all I have come up with in terms of a VW Aircooled/T25 specialist garage:-

Mid Norfolk Car Company Swaffham

http://www.mn-Aircooled.co.uk/Services.htm