DF to DG conversion

[al__dente]

Hello guys, 

My 1985 water cooled 1.9 petrol 44KW DF (with LPG conversion) T3 transporter overheated this summer and finally I have news back from the specialist in Spain that the engine block is damaged and irreparable   So, I will be needing a replacement engine.

DG models seem a little more available.
I spoke with a Spanish T3 specialist who told me various connections are different, and from the Wiki description a different carburetor;

Does anyone have experience with this upgrade and if so can recommend the change?
I'm also looking for leads on mainland EU for the engine, ideally Portugal or Spain.

Many thanks in advance,

Allan

• 1.9 L (1913 cc) (59 bhp) (Serial # DF) 8.6:1 compression ratio, 34-PICT carburetor
  
• 1.9 L (1913 cc) (76 bhp) (Serial # DG) 8.6:1 compression ratio, 2E3 or 2E4 carburetor
  

[Smiffo]

Yes.

I have a DG engine that originally had the DF Solex carb.
You can run it like that, albeit underpowered.

To upgrade you need the Pierburg carb, new throttle cable, an array of new coolant routing changes, inlet manifold, and some minor tweaks to wiring in engine bay.

Here is the thread depicting the journey:   viewtopic.php?t=147477&start=240
 

[Robsey]

The quickest and cheapest option is to get a DG engine and fit your DF manifold and carb.

This is what the father-in-law did on our van in the late 80s.

He fitted a DG engine, with all the DF bumph bolted on top.
Apparently it ran perfectly fine for quite a few years, until he blew out a valve seat one cold and snowy winter morning in 1990.

When Smiffo says under-powered, I presume that is 'compared to the DG' due mainly to the smaller restrictive inlet manifold bores.

[Smiffo]

The quickest and cheapest option is to get a DG engine and fit your DF manifold and carb.

This is what the father-in-law did on our van in the late 80s.

He fitted a DG engine, with all the DF bumph bolted on top.
Apparently it ran perfectly fine for quite a few years, until he blew out a valve seat one cold and snowy winter morning in 1990.

When Smiffo says under-powered, I presume that is 'compared to the DG' due mainly to the smaller restrictive inlet manifold bores.

Indeed, underpowered compared to DG with Pierburg. Correct

Good morning, Robsey


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[Robsey]

Good afternoon dear Chap.

So looking at it - officially in tip-top condition, you would still get 60 bhp (brake horse power) with the DF gubbins fitted, as opposed to 78 bhp with a well set-up DG system.

So the decision is -
ease and speed of repair (DF parts grafted on).
versus
cost and extra effort of repair with a few extra bhp thrown in with the cost. (DG inlet, cooling and wiring changes).

Maybe as I am not the best person to ask, due to my current progress converting from a blown DF as mentioned above... (DF heads etc on a DG block).



to a DJ (with Digijet injection) but retaining the original exhaust and cooling system.





The extra sensor on the thermostat is for my non-standard dash insert.

My estimations are approx 105bhp based on the DJ 112 bhp, slightly knocked back by the early exhaust set up.

[Smiffo]

Yes, I’m not sure about bhp figures, but definitely noticeable performance increase ( if that is appropriate for our vans lol )

That DJ setup looks awesome, Rob.
I have everything digijet to do mine too, but the ECU is of unknown quality ( I actually have 2 ) and the harness is very shoddy and brittle.

I practically shelved the project for now.
The Pierburg setup runs well enough.


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[Robsey]

If the Perburg 2e3 set up works...

Don't fix what isn't broke.

I'm only fixing mine because the DF was broke, old and rusty.

The DJ came up at the right price at the right time in 2014.
Prices have quadrupled since then...

[Stesaw]

I keep looking at the fuel injection stuff I have left and see what marco is doing, and its like.. how hard could it be...
Although I sold my throttle body so would need another one of those if I decided to try

[Robsey]

I keep looking at the fuel injection stuff I have left and see what marco is doing, and its like.. how hard could it be...

Marco has been doing this stuff for a long time.
So for him very easy.

Once you get to grips with the basics of the system you are using, the rest should fall into place.

[TwinTurbo]

Electronic Fuel injection has not changed in 40 years more or less on petrol cars. That's why petrol injection is very reliable compared to the oil burnig euro nighmares.

The big change is available processing power, memory and general electronics. Enabling more refined ignition/fuel maps and in turn more driving stage stratergies including but not limited to cylinder shut down.

EFI is very simple when you actualy look at it.

[Robsey]

What we fail to remember is the difference between early and late engines

Early cooling system with the alloy thermostat casting attached to the waterpump, and the later version with the plastic thermostat tower on the gearbox end of the left cylinder head.

Early exhaust mounted via steady bars from the push-rod cover bolts.
Later mounted off the alloy engine cradle via two big steel curved hooks with retaining bands.

From memory exhaust is easier to swap between them for compatability,
but cooling system is quite different and more involved.

Being an 85 model, this sits towards the latter part of the 'early' set up.

Probably quite doable for a proper seasoned mechanic.
Voodoo, myth and magic for a modern technician.

[al__dente]

What we fail to remember is the difference between early and late engines

Early cooling system with the alloy thermostat casting attached to the waterpump, and the later version with the plastic thermostat tower on the gearbox end of the left cylinder head.

Early exhaust mounted via steady bars from the push-rod cover bolts.
Later mounted off the alloy engine cradle via two big steel curved hooks with retaining bands.

From memory exhaust is easier to swap between them for compatability,
but cooling system is quite different and more involved.

Being an 85 model, this sits towards the latter part of the 'early' set up.

Probably quite doable for a proper seasoned mechanic.
Voodoo, myth and magic for a modern technician.

Hey Rob, thanks for all of your input;
I guess it's not possible to distinguish from this picture, right?  it's the only one I took of the engine moments after the melt-down..

[Robsey]

The image that you emailed to me is an early engine.

[Smiffo]

That’s a bummer. Well spotted Rob.

The Solex carb on it now has no coolant going through the choke, but the pierburg that you would ideally want on a Dg, does.

I don’t know how to plumb that in on an early van


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[Robsey]

For clarification -

The short-term plan is to fit all the DF stuff to the early DG block.
In this way, it is plumbed in the same as it is on the DF block already.

Transfer from the DF block to the DG block -
The inlet manifold and carb,
The steel cross-engine pipe you see between the header tank (beyond the bottom left of frame), to the heater matrix pipes -( top right of frame under the air-filter trunking).
The air-filter and its trunking.
The distributor assembly and it's vacuum pipes etc.

It will all bolt straight on.

On the whole - all the blocks are externally more or less the same.
It is the bolt-on bits that provide all the differences.

For info, the DF has a hedgehog heater in the base of the manifold, but it does not have a water-heated cold-start / choke mechanism.

Any complicated conversions using the DG stuff can be carried out at a later date when time and sanity allow.

IF the DG block comes complete with all the exhaust system, inlet manifold and carb, cooling pipes - including cross-engine pipe. Then it will more or less just drop in.

There isn't a huge difference in the wiring between the DF and DG.