Headlights and reversing lights won’t turn off

[JamesS]

We’re in the middle of our summer bus trip and, as always, she’s keeping me on my toes! My van’s a 1.9 l petrol automatic (1984 Westy Joker).

As far as I can tell, last night, in the early hours of the morning, the dipped headlights and reversing lights decided to turn themselves on for no apparent reason The headlamp switch on the dash is off and the bus is in “Park” (it’s an automatic) but the headlamps and reversing lights are lit and the only way I can get them to go off is to disconnect the battery. I’m pretty sure everything was off as normal when we went to bed last night (I was up until after dark and would surely have noticed). This morning we used nothing electrical except the water pump, but while packing up I noticed the headlights were on. They’d obviously been on for a while too as the starter battery was drained and we only got going by jumping from the leisure battery. I still can’t get them to turn off!

I guess it’s some kind of earth problem, but wondered if anyone could offer any other suggestions or more specific advice, please? (I’ve spent the afternoon cleaning earths, but no luck yet).

Thanks in advance!

[937carrera]

What happens when:

You switch the wipers on with ignition off
You engage reverse gear
You disconnect the reversing light switch (that may not be possible with it being an auto)

[JamesS]

Thanks for the reply!

The wipers don’t work with the ignition off, and do work with the ignition on, so I think the wipers are working normally?

Putting it into reverse makes no difference to the lights (ignition on or off): the headlights and reversing lights stay on regardless.

I haven’t managed to find the reversing light switch yet, but will try disconnecting it if I do.

One weird thing though... when I put it into reverse with the ignition off, all my dash lights come on exactly as though I’d turned the key to the first position. This seems strange (though I can’t be certain it’s part of the current problem, as I’ve never checked this before). I’m mystified as to how putting it into reverse would affect my ignition or lights though

Also, a slight update to my original post - it’s not the dipped headlights that are on permanently, but rather main beam on dimly. The blue main indicator on the dash is also permanently dimly lit. If I attempt to flash main beam the lights get brighter, as does the dash indicator.

She’s a funny old bus

[937carrera]

This is a strange one, unless someone has had this same problem before.

Reversing light switch is on the gearbox on a manual, it could be on an auto, but could also be on the selector, Just looked it's on the selector, still don't know where exactly.https://www.justkampers.com/020-941-521 ... -1987.html see questions.

The wipers not working means indicates that the ignition switch is OK, wherever the lights and reversing light are getting power from it seems to be somewhere else. Main beam getting to normal brightness when pulling on the stalk simply means that bit is working as expected

Here's a link to a wiring diagram http://syncrosport.com/info/wiring/VW_T ... _SP_DG.pdf ,

Reversing lights are on page 11, pull the fuse and those should go off

Headlights are on page 9 but better referring to the Gb lighting at http://syncrosport.com/info/wiring/VW_T ... ghting.pdf Pull fuses 9 & 10 and the headlights should go off.

If pulling the fuses doesn't extinguish the lights then the power source is elsewhere, at which point you should simply start methodically pulling other fuses one by one to see which circuit the current is coming from.

Once you know that then I suspect an inspection of the fusebox and connector blocks will be next, but step by step.

[JamesS]

Thanks for such a fast and detailed reply - it’s much appreciated!

I’ve removed the cover from the gear selector and disconnected what I assume must be the reversing light switch, but the reversing lights are still on

Removing fuse 5 turns off the left main beam, which according to Haynes is correct for a 1984 bus (although that seems to contradict the wiring diagrams in your links). Haynes also reckons fuse 6 should be for the right main beam, but removing this doesn’t have any effect. In fact, the right main beam stays on no matter what fuses I remove (as do the reversing lights)!

It’s now chucking it down, so pretty miserable conditions for roadside repairs. Think we’ll move on until the weather improves (disconnecting the battery whenever we stop), and I’ll have another go in a day or so.

Amazing what can happen when you park up for the night! I reckon a Norwegian troll must have re-wired my bus while we were sleeping

Thanks again for the help so far. If I make any progress I’ll post back here. In the meantime, any other suggestions gratefully received!

[937carrera]

That's the problem with wiring diagrams, they vary by year and market, I didn't even know if you had access to one so better information from Mr Haynes.

The principle is the same, if you have removed the fuses for both the headlights and they stay on then the headlight is getting its current somewhere else. If you are saying that the right main beam stays on if all the fuses are out then the current is coming from an unfused supply, which would lead me to look at the fusebox.

I think you need to start at the right headlamp, disconnect the terminal and check for voltage (maybe 8-9v ?). Then using the wiring diagram follow the cables back to the fusebox to ensure that there isn't some connection happening "along the way". I'm not sure if that makes sense.

Mk1 golfs used to suffer from fusebox problems caused by water leaks from the bulkhead dripping onto the fusebox. Are you sure yours is dry & watertight ?

[JamesS]

Sounds like good advice, thanks. I’ll give it a go tomorrow, starting at the right headlamp, as you suggest.

The main fuse box by the steering column certainly seems dry, and I’ve never noticed any leaks in that area. Some time ago I had a leaking windscreen seal in the front right corner, which I guess could have affected the front right headlamp. I’ll try and check this tomorrow. This is on the other side of the van to the fuse box though, as my van’s LHD.

The only other thing water related is that, at the start of our trip, the pipe connected to the sink came off and sprayed a couple of litres of water into the cupboard behind the driver’s seat before I could stop it. This might have caused some problems, although I guess most stuff back there is leisure battery related and presumably not linked to the headlamps (?). I hope the problem’s not back there anyway as I don’t fancy dismantling the side unit in a Norwegian layby!

Fingers crossed for tomorrow

[937carrera]

It's OK, I only mentioned the Golf as an idea as I have been there with one of those. I doubt the water in the leisure battery area will be the cause, might be worthwhile taking the leisure battery out to make sure everything is dry. (I don't know Westy layouts)

And after two mentions I finally get the Norwegian reference, that's where you are, maybe a bit further north than Aberdeen.

Ha det bra !

[JamesS]

Well, it’s taken most of the day and a lot of groveling around in a carpark but, thanks to your excellent advice on where to begin and what to test, I’ve finally made some progress

I started at the front-right headlight, like you said, and traced the live feed back towards the fuse box. Just before the fuse, hidden up under the dash, I found a funny little clip connector that pierces the insulation of the headlamp wire and connects a mysterious black wire to it. This black wire was live, which explains why my headlamp stayed on even with the fuses removed.

Tracing the black wire took absolutely ages and provided lots of entertainment for both my girlfriend and the local community, though not for me It initially went forward through the bulkhead into the area behind the headlights, then down and back under the van, zig-zagging its way to eventually emerge in the engine bay, where it connects to this funny little grey box:



I’m still not 100% sure what this thing is, but it behaves like a relay, so I’m assuming this is what relays used to look like before they became little plastic boxes? I suspect it’s not original (?), but it’s certainly been there for a long time.

I haven’t managed to trace everything from this relay-thingy yet, but it has a feed from the battery, plus a connection to the black wire linked to my headlamps, and then a connection to some part of the circuit for my reversing lights. As far as I can tell, the points/contacts in this relay have stopped working, so all the circuits are permanently on, instead of switching on when required.

After disconnecting this relay, all my lights are suddenly working properly again The final puzzle is to figure out why the relay is there in the first place, given that it doesn’t seem to do anything! There a signs on my van that there have previously been additional headlights fitted, plus something at the rear that could have been extra reversing lights (though not sure why you’d want them?). My best guess is therefore that an early owner bodged together some additional lights, which were then removed by a subsequent owner, leaving all the dodgy wiring in place.

Either that or the relay circuit is actually crucial, and I’ll discover that loads of things don’t work as soon as we drive away tomorrow

So everything seems to be fixed well enough to continue our travels, and I’ll investigate the rest once we’re back home. Thanks so much for your advice and support - being pointed in the right direction at the beginning was a massive help

[937carrera]

Let me hazard a guess at what that box is. I think your van may have had a towbar fitted at some point in the past and the scotchlock ( aagh was it blue) connector at the front was picking up the feed for the trailer marker lights and providing a feed to a towing relay. Good idea to have reversing lights on a trailer too.

The box looks pretty crusty, so it's been there a long time. Interestingly, for me at least, your DG has a green ignition stabilisation box installed. I was having a discussion about another wiring issue and was told that the DG didn't have DIS. Looks like yours does, was it a DG from new ?.

When your indicators start having problems, start looking for another towing relay From what I have seen Westys do have a slightly different approach to wiring, so perhaps this towing relay was original fitment ? Mind you I don't think they would have used scotchlocks.

Anyway, that's fantastic news, really glad I could help, a good description of the problem helped me point you in the right direction too.

Enjoy the rest of your holiday

[JamesS]

Aha, that makes sense. My van does indeed have a tow bar fitted, though I’ve never considered using it - I’m slow enough going up hills already So I guess I’ve disabled my trailer electrics, which is no problem for the time being. And you’re right - it was a little blue Scotchlock. I’d never seen one before. Just what I need; a new way to bodge electrical connections

I’m pretty sure my van has the original engine, and that little green box is likely original too. I’ve got it in my head that it’s a DG, although now that you mention it I can’t remember on what basis I actually decided this in the first place. It’s certainty a 1.9 petrol automatic, but why I think it’s DG and not e.g. DF, I can’t remember I’ll check again when I get chance.

Cheers!