Tdi starter Q

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ELVIS
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Tdi starter Q

Post by ELVIS »

*mods - posted here as Stinko forum is where all the tdi gurus/freaks hang out and want to get this sorted asap for the customer so he can enjoy it!*

Righto..............

Me and an oppo were asked to fit a Tdi wiring loom for someone by a garage. No problems, have previously done another AFN with no dramas and have done 5 Gti ones between us so no real hassles doing it. One of SYNCROANDYS looms, as per usual , quality bit of kit :ok

Have just had a week off and spoke to the customer today who told me he still didnt have the van back due to wiring issues -namely the immobiliser.

It is a later Passat loom fitted with the earlier 'black box' immobiliser. From doing the other AFN i remember it still showed a immobiliser fault code for a while after it was running (after continuosly clearing it might i add). Why? i dont know! Maybe Mk4s with immobiliser in clocks ECU recognises a different immobiliser and has a hissy fit but still works. Apparently the code has now gone for good :ok

I know 100000001% the K/W line is wired in correctly before it was attempted to be started. just to support my confidence VAGCOM works so the integirty of the wiring is proved to be good. Apparently my oppo spent a while testing earth/lives etc just to be 100000002% sure while i was away!

With the immobiliser key/chip removed the engine *should* briefly fire for 1/2 second before cutting out. I know it still shows an immobiliser fault on vagcom but think this is a red herring as the other AFN ran with same fault initially showing (as previous - compatability issue?) I know SYNCROANDY tests all his looms so dont have any worries about that side of it.

getting to the point :mrgreen:

My oppo tells me 2 batteries were flattened trying to start it. The engine is installed with a kennedy adapter kit BUT is still using the petrol starter motor from a WBX. Oppo tells me at a rough guess he said the engine was turning at half speed on a fresh battery. Im no rocket scientist but that doesnt sound good on a compression engine.

Is it possible that the actual/only reason it is not starting is down to the WBX starter not being man enough to start an AFN?

As previous, all wiring checked out ok, not attempting to fire for half a second as per what commonly happens with immobiliser faults and the fault code is a possible compatability issue as have seen it before on running Tdis?

Anyone?

Constructive/helpful answers only please!

PS - taken from Ross-tech

"On most models using conventional keys, the Engine will still start but cut out after 1-3 Seconds if an Immobilizer related Problem is the cause. If you are NOT experiencing this behavior (e.g. Instrument Cluster powers up, and engine cranks but doesn't fire at all or engine won't crank) this is likely NOT Immobilizer related."

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ewenmaclean
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by ewenmaclean »

Hi Elvis,

the immobiliser fault can sometimes show up if there's a lower voltage than expected, but it sounds like that's not your problem.

There's a well-known software glitch on some AFN ECUs where at low starting speeds the IP actually injects no fuel. See attached map and look at the amount injected. The only real way to solve this is by remapping, but to verify it, you could ask the owner to disconnect the temperature sender on the cylinder head which will cause the IP to inject more fuel. If that is the case then there are a couple of solutions you can try. (It'll also cycle the glow plugs for the maximum time - if it's that you can adapt that in vag-com on channel 12).

Of course having a petrol start for a diesel engine isn't great to begin with, but if you think it should start you can try with disconnecting the temperature sensor.

Image

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ELVIS
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by ELVIS »

mmmmmmmmmm

cheers ewen

Sounds very plausable as last one had low battery and wouldnt play until it was jumped and had VERY similar problem ie initailly thought it was immobiliser but wasnt. (thats where i initially found rosstech link/info)

Will give it a go on monday - fresh battery/disconnect sender/cycle GPs lots :mrgreen: Hopefully the bugger will start then :ok If thats the case and 1000000000000000000000000% proved not to be immobiliser, someone will have to start thinking about making it turn over quicker.

Although we have done 'our' side of the install/deal, by washing our hands and walking away even though it hasnt started doesnt actually help anyone-especially the owner. I dont think the garage we were asked to do the install for comes on here so thought i had best post it up!

cheers again :ok

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ewenmaclean
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by ewenmaclean »

Hi again Elvis,

hope you get somewhere with that. Lee was interested in getting tdi starter adapters - I don't know what bellhousing it's got, and not sure what's possible there, but it might be a thought.

If it starts with the temp sender disconnected you can wire up a relay to make the ECU think it's very cold as it's starting, thus not cycling the glow plugs too much. You can also adapt the glow plugs duration in vag-com, and also (To some extent) modify the starting conditions in channel 5 - putting the value to 33268 will fool the ECU into thinking it's a bit colder than it is. Other thing to check is all the temperatures in vag-com (fuel, air and coolant), make sure they're saying something sensible.

Ewen

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ELVIS
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by ELVIS »

cheers again ewan :mrgreen: :ok

petrol WBX bellhousing + starter, kennedy adapter/flywheel.

TBH dont want to meddle with the install as it was the other garages work and not ours to touch/meddle with. proper fix sounds like fitting better starter i guess :?

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lloydy
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by lloydy »

Hi Elvis. Mine now shows no fault codes. as mentioned, i think that was to do with voltage, as immob fault will still allow it to fire.(i have the same late ecu/early immob) These engines seem tetchy with low voltage though, as mine was showing alternator fault until i fitted new battery. Surely a petrol starter won't cope with the compression of a TDI? Doesn't the garage have the ability to fault find on these engines? seeing as they are installing them??
Good call posting up though, someone had to......
Time is a drug. Too much of it kills you

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..lee..
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by ..lee.. »

wouldn`t have thought petrol starter would work. amps clamp the starter. sounds like a petrol to tdi conversion ???????

is the battery still mounted a hundred miles from the starter or have they put one in the bay ???

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ELVIS
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by ELVIS »

Lee- battery mounted under seat so i guess voltage loss compared to engine bay location is a lot higher :?: and yep, its petrol to diesel conversion.

As previous, have been away but from what i can gather my oppo has put his snap on tool into OBD and vagcom hasnt actually been used yet as we havent got it so will have to ask the garage to use theirs. Guess if i plug vagcom in on monday it will give an actual/true cranking speed as the snap-on one doesnt do live/continuous numbers/figures, i *think* it only updates on 5 second cycles and only gives lowest/peak numbers.

My own Tdi (1Z) has battery under seat and starting sucks ar$e at the best of time and starts after 3 or so seconds as opposed to 'on the button' like its meant to.

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lloydy
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by lloydy »

I hope it's sorted for him soon :ok
Time is a drug. Too much of it kills you

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ELVIS
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by ELVIS »

Righto, it would appear from the samba that kennedy kits need to be used with a starter adapter and a tdi starter as WBX isnt up to the job but cant find exact sentance if that makes sense - only lots of posts that very much allude to this.

ideas?

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ewenmaclean
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by ewenmaclean »

Hi Elvis,

seems my previous post might have been a red herring - apologies. There's a bit on the westyventures site here, which apparently provides the adapter for the kennedy conversion kit:

http://westyventures.com/parts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

about half way down. I'd say Lee is right and if they're using a wbx starter then that's the problem. Apologies if I overcomplicated the issue - I wonder if it's possible to bump start it?

Ewen

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ELVIS
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by ELVIS »

cheers (again) Ewen

Its difficult TBH Ewen. Me and me oppo were only tasked with the wiring and a 'bit of paint'. Me oppo spent a day last week double checking everything as the garage who subbied us the work was convinced it was a fault on the wiring side/immboliser side.

It would appear to not to be the case.

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lloydy
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by lloydy »

looks like its sorted then :ok
Time is a drug. Too much of it kills you

Cableguy
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by Cableguy »

They are apparently Official uk dealers of Kennedy products
:roll:

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lloydy
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Re: Tdi starter Q

Post by lloydy »

Hopefully this means you can pick it up soon then
Time is a drug. Too much of it kills you

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