Syncro drivers - who's got LPG fitted?

[Ray]

I have had lpg on my current van for 8 years and on an air cooled T25 for about 8 years before that. The first van I converted myself with a kit but the latest had to have a registered fitter to do it. Both ran well on lpg and still happy with the lower price although going up more in comparison. Trouble is its not so popular now and when planning a journey I look ahead for available supplies and recently on a trip to Norwich the garage I usually use had had the pump removed. Other times a listed garage would have the pump out of order. Still with the filllpg POI on tomtom I can usually survive, only once having switch to liquid gold for a few miles. Hope to carry on a few more years using LPG but to convert now I would have to think again! The tank takes up storage space but with a high top its not so important.

[ninja.turtle007]

I thought long and hard about converting to LPG not just with the 2.1 but also with changing the engine to a 2.5 subaru. But ultimately it was a space issue, small tank and having to go out of my way to fill up locally.

Going form 2.1 MV to Tdi I save about 16p per mile after allowing for the cost difference between petrol a diesel. The conversion wasn't cheap and will probably take about 25k miles to pay for itself. Not taking into account how much better it is to drive, it is now efficient enough to use as my daily commuter. Which means I don't need a 2nd car which would incur insurance, tax and mot costs, minimum of £700 per year. We use it all of the time and my wife's car is no longer used at weekends, it is only used for her to commute.

Going by fuel savings alone it will take us about 2 and 1/2 years to pay for everything.

In the end if I hadn't gone diesel I would have sold my van rather than go through the hassle and restrictions of LPG.

[jed the spread]

And remember that LPG isnt environmentally friendly, your still burning a fossil fuel and its use contributes to climate change

Jed

[silverbullet]

While I have a cuppa...Everything is fossil fuelled! We burn gas, oil and coal to make electricity, to make so-called low-carbon electric cars and hybrid sacred cows! But an LPG'd spark ignition engine won't give you lung cancer, unlike the particulate emissions from a non-cat equipped diesel. But the OP wasn't asking about CI engines.

From lpg-cars.co.uk

Our view is that LPG is a cleaner fuel specifically:

LPG produces 33% less CO2 emissions than petrol and 45% less CO2 than diesel.
LPG vehicles produce upto 82% less Nitrogen Oxide pollutants than petrol and 99% better than diesel !
63% less Carbon Monoxide.
40% less Hydrocarbons than petrol and 70% less than diesel.
50% less particulates than petrol and 98% less than diesel. These caused the London warning in 2005.

Back on topic: My SA's 10:1 compression engine does not like ordinary unleaded. On 95 RON it pinks and rings the exhaust like a demented triangle player, 97RON a bit better but still worrrying and even Tesco 99 Excellium is only just passable*

But on LPG (equivalent 110 RON) not so much as a ping even when wide open in 5th.

* I could fix this by wiring a resistor across the ecu diagnostic plug on a relay, a bit like the 90's GM Vaux/Opels with their Octane plugs that you could swap to fool the ecu, but since it spends all it's time on LPG then it's hardly worth the effort.

LPG is a different fuel, it's needs are different to petrol. Ignition timing and static advance are both different, you've got to light the fires a bit earlier with high-octane fuel and it burns better with a higher compression ratio, typically 10:1 is the lower limit. 12:1 would be better but you'd have to have a DJ on flat-top pistons for that!
It's energy density is almost identical to petrol by weight, but well down when measured by volume. That's why you either sacrifice mileage or power, or settle for a balance of the two.

Too many conversions are half-arsed, so the results are just that. Plumbing in the lpg is only half of the job. You've got to optimise the engine for the primary fuel to get the best from it. In fact you have to look at the whole vehicle: the good thing about the T3 is that there is some choice about where to site the tank and the vehicle will stand a bit of careful modification to the structure without severe ill-effects (thinking of Dehler firewall alterations, for instance)

The bottom line is: if you want to get the best from LPG, you need to start from the right place and this means a hi-comp. engine like a DJ or better still an a Subaru EJ or VW ADY (Sharan) or equivalent 10:1 engine with half-decent sequential injection that will run piggyback SGIS on the ecu for the best results.

All based on my experiences of running a venturi lpg setup and doing 350+ miles a week in my bus

[toomanytoys]

[silverbullet]

Come on in mate, the water (vapour) is lovely

[toomanytoys]

Come on in mate, the water (vapour) is lovely

LPG does for me.... But then I dont have a camper.. and the loss of space is bareable as access isnt all that good and its just tools spares and recovery gear in there... etc
https://club8090.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72228" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The caravelle will be regassed as soon as I have time and get it reg in the UK... that has a custom full width tank that holds 76L of LPG.. and still sits under the std rear bench.. Thats not a camper either so I havent really missed the space...
It was featured in camper and comercial mag many years ago.. (I wrote the article.. )

In both cases I went for as much capacity as i could get in.. I dont want to be faffing about finding gas on a long trip... and if I run out and its not convenient I take the hit on liquid gold.. (aint often)

If you do lots of miles than its got to be considered.. and 5k for a Tdi conversion, buys an awfull lot of petrol... you'd prob have to do somewhere in the region of 40-60k miles before the TDi would start saving more than you spent.. yes there are other reasons to go TDi of course.. but if cost is your only factor then it needs calculating...


Of course.. can always start the decoupler thread up again.. LOL

[ghop99]

Of course.. can always start the decoupler thread up again.. LOL

I've got LPG and a decoupler and I'm still skint!!

[ninja.turtle007]

If you do lots of miles than its got to be considered.. and 5k for a Tdi conversion, buys an awfull lot of petrol... you'd prob have to do somewhere in the region of 40-60k miles before the TDi would start saving more than you spent.. yes there are other reasons to go TDi of course.. but if cost is your only factor then it needs calculating...

Just under 30k miles will pay for my conversion. The rest I agree with.

[toomanytoys]

30k???
How have you calculated it...???

wbx at 22mpg on petrol at 1.35L =27.8ppm
to save 16ppm (in another thread you mention that) on a TDi, it would have to be doing 53mpg... Really?????? (1.38L)

More realistic (generous?) would be 40mpg... thats gonna take 42k miles...
a few more mpg on a wbx (entirely poss) and a few les on a TD/TDi and more miles to cover cost..

[silverbullet]

Bam! Now that's what I'm talking about...toomanytoys is in the house

[jed the spread]

Staying on the LPG topic, I wonder why new cars are not built to run on LPG from the factory. Seems strange if it is half the price of petrol, better for the environment, reduces engine wear and all the other sales chat you see on some of the converters websites I looked at once. It seems the obvious choice to build all new cars to run on LPG wonder fuel rather than the usual electronic engines now available that run on the other two fossil fuels

Jed

[lloydy]

I'm sure Tom will post soon, but I'm sure he was only getting around 17mpg on his MV? Could be wrong though.
Don't think this thread is meant to be about diesel vs LPG anyway which is where it looks like its heading....
I really don't think they can be compared, LPG is ONLY about saving money, nothing else. Diesel (tdi) I don't think many people do it to save money primarily, more for a modern engine, that is fitted to hundreds of thousands of cars, the way the car drives, and the torque the van deserves. now before the petrol heads scream, you could fit a modern inline 4 that uses the same block as the diesels, that would probably get you better performance and better mpg than a lpg'd WBX.
Back on topic though, I don't think LPG can work with the small tanks available.(I would want a 400mile range) Now, if LPG was available at EVERY fuel station, and you could remove the petrol tank and fit an LPG one. Then I think it would be viable.

[lloydy]

Staying on the LPG topic, I wonder why new cars are not built to run on LPG from the factory. Seems strange if it is half the price of petrol, better for the environment, reduces engine wear and all the other sales chat you see on some of the converters websites I looked at once. It seems the obvious choice to build all new cars to run on LPG wonder fuel rather than the usual electronic engines now available that run on the other two fossil fuels

Jed

I could be wrong jed, but I think the only reason LPG is so cheap is due to tax rates. I'm sure I read somewhere that LPG is actually more expensive than petrol before duty is added?

[ninja.turtle007]

30k???
How have you calculated it...???

wbx at 22mpg on petrol at 1.35L =27.8ppm
to save 16ppm (in another thread you mention that) on a TDi, it would have to be doing 53mpg... Really?????? (1.38L)

More realistic (generous?) would be 40mpg... thats gonna take 42k miles...
a few more mpg on a wbx (entirely poss) and a few les on a TD/TDi and more miles to cover cost..

I have never seen 22MPG from a petrol westy. My lifted, massively over geared syncro westy (4.57 diff & 225/70/16 tyres) running an MV returned 16 - 18 MPG, no matter how carefully I drove it. Even my old 2wd lowered 1.9GW westy never quite managed 21MPG.

With the current tdi I average 30-32mpg.

Anyway these are my calculations

17mpg @ £1.34L = £0.354 per mile
31mpg @£1.38L = £0.200 per mile

okay 16 p per mile was a little inaccurate but that's still 15.5ppm.

My engine conversion including all syncro diesel parts came in at £4500.

£4500/0.154 = 29220miles

That's not taking into account the value of the petrol parts removed.

Although I don't, I can add up to 50% SVO at £0.92L

Now petrol heads may start saying "Well your MV was probably knackered". I have no idea, maybe it was,maybe it wasn't, maybe the gearing and weight of a westy syncro produced the lower figure than you are getting. I confess to knowing nothing in comparison to you and Ian. As far as I know, Ian is in possession of it. I'm sure at some point it is either going in his syncro velle or he will be stripping it. Then we'll know.