16" damper extention with Andreas springs

[syncropaddy]

Yes the spacer will change the ball joint angle, but the standard ball joint is designed to work within a certain range and that range is governed by the stroke of the shock. With standard shocks the ball joint is always in 'the sweet spot'. You could, in fact, damage the ball joint if you go to the full bump position if you have a spacer fitted. Rarely happens I know but its a possibility.

I apologise to all ball joint spacer manufacturers!

[jebiga41]

you will need upper ball joint spacers on the front

Why? If you are using a standard shock with a standard stroke the top arm angular movement will not increase or decrease. You will only need to fit ball joint spacers if you fit a shock with a longer stroke as this will take the top arm movement out of the standard design range. Fitting different springs and /or spacers will not change the amount of angular movement from the top arm. How can it as its the piston stroke on the shock that controls the suspension range of movement not the spring?

I have been running 16" shocks with a Syncro Services lift kit up front since I got the van and I have no issues at all. I only needed to check the tracking. On my other Syncro, which is an empty van with nothing in it, it is running a completely standard original setup and the height from wheel centre to wheel arch is only a few millimetres lower. It appears that these Andreas springs restore a heavy camper to the standard ride height. Again why do you need a top ball joint spacer?

Because you do What you are running is completely differnet set up to the Andreas springs if you had Andreas springs I'd tell you why

[syncropaddy]

Why do you need a ball joint spacer? Tell us all. Base your answer on sound engineering principals and not 'because you do' nonsense please. I just know this will be good, coming from someone who drove around with his top arm fitted upside down for months without realising it and then blamed certain people fro 'stretching' his van on the other side when being towed out of yet another mud hole he got stuck in!!!!

Yup, this answer is going to be good ......

[Aidan]

Andrew a fyi
I run 20mm front and rear syncroservices spacers on a 1988 Caravelle fitted with later cast arm suspension
I run 8mm collar ontop of front dampers, rears are not extended at all
I run standard 14" genuine springs and dampers all renewed a few years ago at the same time I changed to late cast arm front suspension with all new nuts ,bolts, washers and genuine rubbers etc....
I run Mefro 15" rims with bfg MTs at the weekends, 14" 205 on bullet holes rest of the time
in order to stop the front dampers topping out too much I find the 8mm collar is necessary (BTW Paul's tops out too much for my liking) it also puts the centre of the stroke of the damper closer to centre of travel and maximises the spacer lift effect
in order to stop the upper wishbones from contacting the springs before full extension I needed the top ball joint spacers (didn't need them with 15mm spacer) and also I ran out of camber adjustment on the nearside, I was on the tolerance limit rather than in the middle of the range with some adjustment as one would like
it works fine, Simon set the tracking with adjustment to spare again and it drives straight handles pretty well and is nice to drive so I am happy
61 1/2" centre of front hub to bottom of gutter on 14", that's 156 and a bit cm
Also worth noting I had to cut and shut the rear of the front arches in order to run the 15" tyres without contact with the caster correct for steering geometry, Edna has a front spare wheel carrier factory type and fuel tanks for lpg in the middle and bulkhead and I'm fat so always sat low at the front, chassis is a bit tired and sunroof van may be more prone to sag/spread, the bus is 24
I haven't tried to microadjust the position of the front subframe
looks to me like shells vary a bit as does some of the position of the underslung bits and there may have been very slight variations for country or locally sourced parts used prior to delivery (swedish spec vans seem to have a higher stance - discuss) and they all age differently and that corrosion in the subframe/shell probably causes distortion of the shell that is significant, but I may be wrong but others put on 215/75/15 MTs on Mefros with no contact on the back of the front arches - discuss

[axeman]

looks to me like shells vary a bit as does some of the position of the underslung bits and there may have been very slight variations for country or locally sourced parts used prior to delivery (swedish spec vans seem to have a higher stance - discuss) and they all age differently and that corrosion in the subframe/shell probably causes distortion of the shell that is significant, but I may be wrong but others put on 215/75/15 MTs on Mefros with no contact on the back of the front arches - discuss

i never had an issue with the tyres scrubbing the body work on the doka. with either the standerd springs/shocks or the seikle/ome set up that i now have.

i cant quite remember what simon said when he was adjusting the 4 wheel alinement, i think i was the first one he saw with the ball joint spacers, but they allowed him to set everything up well with the middle of the adjustment range.

he did also say that ideally the inner trailing mounting points could be slightly enlarged (lengthened) to get everything set up perfectly.

neil

[taigagreen]

I just put Andreas springs on my hightop westy. The springs top out and the the upper control arm touch the spring when the suspension moves. What I need is shock extensions and UCA spacer. The longer springs obviously changes the angle of the UCA and the spacer somewhat remedies that.

[jebiga41]

I just put Andreas springs on my hightop westy. The springs top out and the the upper control arm touch the spring when the suspension moves. What I need is shock extensions and UCA spacer. The longer springs obviously changes the angle of the UCA and the spacer somewhat remedies that.

WHS

[syncropaddy]

I just put Andreas springs on my hightop westy. The springs top out and the the upper control arm touch the spring when the suspension moves. What I need is shock extensions and UCA spacer. The longer springs obviously changes the angle of the UCA and the spacer somewhat remedies that.

Every spring will top out under certain conditions.

If your Upper Control Arm hits the spring in the 'full rebound position' with STANDARD shocks fitted, you dont need shock extensions and UCA spacers, you need to find out why because there is something wrong under there!

I am working on some pics which will show you this.

[syncropaddy]

Here are two sets of pics. Set one shows a STANDARD van setup with no modifications whatsoever.

This pic shows the suspension at normal ride height with no driver and an empty van



This pic shows the same van in the 'Full Rebound Position'



There is enough room between the spring and upper control are to slide a pencil in


The second set of pics shows exactly the same thing in a Diesel Multivan but using a set of 20mm spacers from Syncro Services, 16" shocks, standard spring and geometry set up within the standard tolerances.

....... at normal ride height with no driver but full Multivan spec



This pic shows the same Multivan in the 'Full Rebound Position'



Again there is enough room between the spring and upper control arm are to slide a pencil in.

In both instances the Upper Control Arm Ball Joint is operating within its design spec, the Upper Control Arm is nowhere near the coil spring. By fitting different rate springs to either set up will have no effect whatsoever to the position of the Upper Control Arm. How can it?

Examine the pics again and tell me why an Upper Control Arm Ball Joint spacer is required on a set up like this. If the Andreas springs are fitted only two things change, the spring rate and the spring length. The important distance between the upper and lower shock mount does not change so therefore the angular movement range of the Upper Control Arm cannot be any different.

So how can adding a set of 'Andreas Springs' be so 'completely different' as Paul states?

Because you do What you are running is completely differnet set up to the Andreas springs if you had Andreas springs I'd tell you why

No a standard setup isnt 'completely different' as there are only a possible two variables changed from standard, spring rate and spring length.


Aidan raises a few points which have to be brought into the equation. Firstly, the differences from one van to another and secondly, the possibility of 'age related' or 'use related' condition of the bodyshell where the shock is mounted. The front suspension is not mounted on three firm body mounts, the shock mount can bend or rot with age and on some vehicles this could cause the upper control arm to hit the spring. The remedy here is to repair and not use a ball joint spacer sticking plaster

[jebiga41]

No a standard setup isnt 'completely different' as there are only a possible two variables changed from standard, spring rate and spring length.

Sorry not true Andrew the Andreas springs are thicker and wider than standard springs (19mm diameter for Andreas springs)
also I would attest that due the increased spring rate and length of the andreas springs they push the lower control arm further down at full rebound much more than that of a standard spring with 20 mm spacer as per your set up.

[..lee..]

The reason the top ball joint hits the spring is because the shock is lengthened thus allowing the top arm to travel further down in its arc. With longer springs you get top out without lengthening the shocks so if you are set on going outside the factory perameters you have to deal with the fact that the ball joints get close to the spring. The ball joint spacers help a little if you move in to this zone.

Lee

[syncropaddy]

Sorry not true Andrew the Andreas springs are thicker and wider than standard springs (19mm diameter for Andreas springs)

I would attest that due the increased spring rate and length of the andreas springs they push the lower control arm further down at full rebound much more than that of a standard spring with 20 mm spacer as per your set up.

The wire diameter of 19 mm is what changes the rate. 19mm wire will change the overall diameter of the spring by 3 mm.
19mm is only 1.5 mm larger than standard of 17.5 mm which is what the standard spring is made from ( ive just measured the springs in the pics )

Only by modifying the length of the pushrod will the upper control arm move down futhur. Also bear in mind that the more you do this the closer you get to your CV joint and roll bar drop link limits. Not good practice.

[taigagreen]

Sweet (Jon) Lord, You are one stubborn man

Btw: One must never speak in definitive and absolute terms, ever!

[syncropaddy]

Sweet (Jon) Lord, You are one stubborn man

Btw: One must never speak in definitive and absolute terms, ever!

That's the wrong word you used actually but as English is a foreign language to you (an me) I will forgive you. Persistance is a better word. Stubbornness is a word used to describe a nut or bolt that won't budge and persistence is what cracks it in the end. My persistence has paid off actually in that this is a complete wind up for Paul in retaliation for winding me up over my power steering shaft!! It worked so well in fact he slammed the phone down on me last night.... Lost the head completely I suppose you could say that he got a little hot under his 8mm collar

WIN

[silverbullet]

the master at work is truly a thing to behold in wonder! Nice one Andrew, what's good for the goose etc. You'd think that Paul could take a good wind-up...