Should it struggle up hills???

General Technical Questions and Answers last answered over 1 year ago.
You may also want to visit the Wiki(pedia) for a more structured index of T25 repair, maintenance, technical and ownership topics

Moderators: User administrators, Moderators

Locked
User avatar
toolsntat
Registered user
Posts: 1112
Joined: 28 Oct 2005, 22:41
80-90 Mem No: 644
Location: Leicesterish

Should it struggle up hills???

Post by toolsntat »

O.K. Hats off to the boys doing the tune ups at Vanfest and I must say there were some rough sounding buses that came out of that place sounding really great (mine included) :D
Could it be said that in the limited time available and without a test drive they without doubt did a great job...
Only the thing is that before the tune up and with things how I had got them (including rubbish idling) there were times when going up hills was never a chore but my timing was off the mark and when set correct as I thought :? it would struggle.....
What I would like to know is should I settle for things as they are now (a struggle) or tweek the timing to try and give me the better hill climbing ability that I know is in there somewhere???
If they had been given the chance of a test drive up the Malverns do you think they would have left it or tweeked it more (if thats possible)??
------------------
"GOT ANY OLD TOOLS??"
"WANT ANY OLD TOOLS??"
WANTED old treadle lathe please......
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
1980 2.0L Aircooled Blue Hightop Holdsworth Villa Camper
2002 White 2.0l 280 td swb hightop Tranzit works van

User avatar
CovKid
Trader
Posts: 8411
Joined: 30 Apr 2006, 13:19
80-90 Mem No: 3529
Location: Ralph - Coventry (Retired)
Contact:

Post by CovKid »

I can only say (and I'm sure I'll get slammed down for this) after many years of working on beetles that often, even if the timing was correct, adjusting the timing so it just didn't 'pink' (sounds like a chain rattling) was about right and more often than not a better way to tune an engine in the end. Timing marks are a guide, a point of reference, but individual engines run differently. I see no reason why you can't 'nudge' it a little. Providing it doesn't overheat.

To put this in context I have in the past been called in to retune engines that had been crypton tuned and afterwards exhibited the kind of problem you describe. Fact is, whilst you can tune an engine by the book, it doesn't always follow that its right for any given engine. Don't move too far away from your present timing though. Not sure if you have manual points but an incorrect gap with manual points can also cause this.

The extremes of timing (roughly) range from no top end speed one way, to no pulling power the other - if that helps.

User avatar
HarryMann
Admin/Mod
Posts: 9608
Joined: 30 Sep 2005, 11:40
80-90 Mem No: 379
Location: Herts, UK

Post by HarryMann »

Clearly and accurately mark the distributor where it is now - permanently as possible with a couple of small spot punch marks or thin paint - that would be my No. 1 advice.

As Cov says, points can affect things if the change soon after setting and strobe testing the timing, smaller gap retards, larger advances to an extent.

But really, there is great scope for getting the timing wrong when setup to the book - the method used would have to be known, and all the vacuums and centrrifugal advance curves checked to knwo it is right. And then, your engine may vary a bit from that, if it is standard even.
Has it got both vacum adv and retard (2 vac pipes to the dizzie aneroid), or just advance?

Did they check that the centrif and vac adv/retard are giving figures in the right ball-park. Otherwise the static timing will be pretty meaningless.

The 80-90 Tech Wikipedia Your 1st port of call :idea

1.9TD Syncro Doka / Syncro Kastenwagen / 16" Kombi Camper
Syncronaut No. 1

User avatar
CovKid
Trader
Posts: 8411
Joined: 30 Apr 2006, 13:19
80-90 Mem No: 3529
Location: Ralph - Coventry (Retired)
Contact:

Post by CovKid »

Thanks for supporting me on this one HarryMann. Sometimes there are unexplainable reasons why an engine runs better when its outside the 'gospel' settings but indeed this can be the case. To be fair, setting things up by the book are a safe way to set your engine up and nine times out of ten it WILL be right. I don't suggest for a minute that anyone goes off and messes about with their tuning for the sake of it (generally its best left well alone if its running well) but now and again you get an engine that likes things 'just so'.

Many many years ago I used to tune a bug out in Wrabness (not far from Harwich) and the owner said i was the ONLY one who could ever tune his Beetle correctly. Sure I used a strobe etc but sometimes you need to use your hearing and a little intuition to get things spot on. Certainly a road test will show any weaknesses but as Harrymann says, its important to set it by the book first, mark it, then tweak a little if need be. On the whole, setting it so the engine pinks under load, then backing it off a little at a time until the pinking stops is probably where your engine will be happiest.

User avatar
toolsntat
Registered user
Posts: 1112
Joined: 28 Oct 2005, 22:41
80-90 Mem No: 644
Location: Leicesterish

Re: Should it struggle up hills???

Post by toolsntat »

On the whole, setting it so the engine pinks under load, then backing it off a little at a time until the pinking stops is probably where your engine will be happiest.

Does` backing it off `mean move the dizzy clockwise or anticlockwise(cu engine)??
----
Has it got both vacum adv and retard (2 vac pipes to the dizzie aneroid), or just advance?

Both
------
Did they check that the centrif and vac adv/retard are giving figures in the right ball-park. Otherwise the static timing will be pretty meaningless.

Not sure about this and not looked at that myself
-----
Providing it doesn't overheat

Spoke to German about this the other day and he said best to get a temp gauge but failing that you could see how hot the dipstick is by touching it.Did this and its HOT!! (methinks its too hot,it hurt!!) Or am I not understanding properly what he meant???
------------------
"GOT ANY OLD TOOLS??"
"WANT ANY OLD TOOLS??"
WANTED old treadle lathe please......
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
1980 2.0L Aircooled Blue Hightop Holdsworth Villa Camper
2002 White 2.0l 280 td swb hightop Tranzit works van

User avatar
CovKid
Trader
Posts: 8411
Joined: 30 Apr 2006, 13:19
80-90 Mem No: 3529
Location: Ralph - Coventry (Retired)
Contact:

Post by CovKid »

Advancing the ignition wil induce pinking. Providing you have your original setting to go back to, then you do at least have a point of reference.

Simon Baxter
Trader
Posts: 3116
Joined: 08 Oct 2005, 19:36
80-90 Mem No: 1
Location: Huddersfield, WeYo.
Contact:

Post by Simon Baxter »

Setting up knackered old engines is sometimes only possible by "setting by the seat of your pants"
Worn dizzy, worn carbs, air leaks, valves that don't seat 100%, leaking vac advance etc etc all add up to something that won't run as the book says, setting up by the book is a good start, and as noted gereally good enough but sometimes you have to use your intuition and initiaive to get them to do what they are meant to.
'86 VW T3 syncro panel
'89 VW T3 Westy Atlantic
'81 Porsche 924
SJ Baxter LTD/Brickwerks

User avatar
HarryMann
Admin/Mod
Posts: 9608
Joined: 30 Sep 2005, 11:40
80-90 Mem No: 379
Location: Herts, UK

Post by HarryMann »

Does backing it off `mean move the dizzy clockwise or anticlockwise(cu engine)??
----

Whatever is the same way as the rotor arm turns when its running

Both adv and ret

This how I see this working, please correct me if you know different for this engine, which I don't know and have never worked on:

Required Fact: When idling there is a high vacuum, progressively reducing to nominally atmospheric pressure at full throttle, pretty well regardless of rpm.

1) The Vac Retard only gets a vacuum signal when the throttle is closed, or at very small throttle settings;
2) The Vac Advance only gets a vacuum signal when the throttle is away from the closed position;
3) (1) & (2) above are achieved by the positioning of the vacuum ports within the carburrettor throat, with the butterfly or some other device masking the vacuum ports appropriately;
4a) Going on (1), the Vac Retard signal is predominantly an idle signal, and can be ignored when the throttle is opened much further;
4b) Thus we get a Vac Retard of about 12 deg. max at idle (850~950 rpm)
5) Combined with a static setting of about 7 deg BTDC, this gives a strobe reading at 900 rpm of about 5 deg. ATDC - this is for emissions and smooth idling, AFAIK.
This 5 ATDC is the datum quoted with both vac tubes conencted and the Idle Stabiliser Unit's connectors, if fitted, plugged together.
6) As soon as the throttle is opened significantly, this signal (1) disappears, but is almost immediately replaced with the beginnings of the vacuum signal (2), which will advance the ignition somewhat.
7) Strong Vac Adv (2) signals are produced under part throttle and low load conditions, at medium to high rpm. advancing the timing for economy reasons e.g when running on a light throttle or lifting off at speed. Max vac Adv. is maybe 10~12 degrees @ 200~280 mbar.
8 ) When loading the engine up, and the vacuum reduces below about 100 mbar, the Vac Adv. reduces to zero, effectively retarding the ignition so to prevent pinking or detonation, which allows high pressures and hence torque to be produced smoothly and safely.
9) At all conditions the Centrifugal advance curve determines the basic timing advance dependent upon time available for combustion as the engine speeds up, so advancing up to a mximum safe value of 21~25 degrees at 3400 rpm.
10) For several reasons Centr. Adv. doesn't increase beyond this speed, one being that combined with a whiff of Vac Adv. at high speed due to easing off, gross over advance might occur threatening high speed detonation. Another is that cylinder filling (volumetric efficiency) is starting to decrease after that max torque rpm, and hence there is less mixture to burn requiring less advance. Also, as the rpm increases, at a set throttle opening, the vacuum increases and may bring this Advance into play.

11) Most centrifugal systems have a two stage curve, in this (2.0 CU) case, the kink point is about 1600 rpm, quite typical. Cylinder filling (state of tune, camshaft etc.) and combustion efficiency determine the basic Centr. Adv. curve chosen.

Knowing these basics, allows better intuitive and calculated adjustments to be made, particularly with respect ot the danger areas, usually over-advance. Although constant retarded running can produce more exhaust heat and threaten exhaust valves, somewhat akin to running a weak mixture that takes longer to burn (hence the popping back with a blown exhaust or missing air-cleaner)


Did they check that the centrif and vac adv/retard are giving figures in the right ball-park. Otherwise the static timing will be pretty meaningless.

Not sure about this and not looked at that myself

The above should shed some light on this... [HM]
-----

Providing it doesn't overheat

As above too...

Spoke to German about this the other day and he said best to get a temp gauge but failing that you could see how hot the dipstick is by touching it. Did this and its HOT!! (methinks its too hot,it hurt!!) Or am I not understanding properly what he meant???

It will always burn you I should have thought :) the oil would often be above 100 C on an Aircooled?

You might ensure all the air-cooling ducts and shrouds are sealed well and fit for purpose, with no bits missing. Check the oil cooler isn't clogged (airways) etc.
Last edited by HarryMann on 19 Sep 2006, 22:06, edited 1 time in total.

The 80-90 Tech Wikipedia Your 1st port of call :idea

1.9TD Syncro Doka / Syncro Kastenwagen / 16" Kombi Camper
Syncronaut No. 1

User avatar
HarryMann
Admin/Mod
Posts: 9608
Joined: 30 Sep 2005, 11:40
80-90 Mem No: 379
Location: Herts, UK

Post by HarryMann »

Yes, and as Simon says too! I bet the scatter is grim after 100,000 miles...

The 80-90 Tech Wikipedia Your 1st port of call :idea

1.9TD Syncro Doka / Syncro Kastenwagen / 16" Kombi Camper
Syncronaut No. 1

User avatar
toolsntat
Registered user
Posts: 1112
Joined: 28 Oct 2005, 22:41
80-90 Mem No: 644
Location: Leicesterish

: Re: Should it struggle up hills???

Post by toolsntat »

Thanks for all your info (very technical but gradually learning) and when I get time I`ll try to do some fine adjustments, although because it`s not doing to bad I`m frit of getting it wrong!!!
By the way the engines only done 33000 miles.
Cheers
------------------
"GOT ANY OLD TOOLS??"
"WANT ANY OLD TOOLS??"
WANTED old treadle lathe please......
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
1980 2.0L Aircooled Blue Hightop Holdsworth Villa Camper
2002 White 2.0l 280 td swb hightop Tranzit works van

Locked