AGG seized - Oil starvation on steep inclines?

[Hansa]

Not quite the first post I planned to make, but 2k miles after buying an AGG engined '86 Syncro, it stalled as I pulled into my garage. 30 minutes of head scratching later and I realised that the engine has actually seized with no obvious warning, pulled it out yesterday and seems like its the crank but I've not torn it down to see the full extent of the damage.

With the sump removed I've realised just how shallow the oil level is around the pickup even when the vehicle is level - is there a risk of oil starvation from driving and parking on steep inclines? (Its been installed at an angle with diesel engine mounts and JX sump). I've not seen this mentioned anywhere before but it is a particular concern for me as my drive has a very steep incline, measured at 22-18 degrees (~40% incline) for about 30m and where I park the van is still 16 degrees nose up and 6 degrees to the left which seems to be about the worst case for the oil pickup. To give an idea of how steep it is, FWDs can only get up in the dry with a run up and wheel spinning, no chance in the wet - the Syncro goes up nicely in 'G'.

There doesn't seem like much point putting this engine back in if this is a likely root cause - I've seen there is a baffle available which I'm missing but that will not help when starting from cold. I can't even just overfill it as it looks like its already at risk of foaming when filled to the maximum on the dipstick. This probably rules out switching to any other i4 engine as well unless I mount it vertically, and if I was going to change all that I suspect going to an EJ25 be a better option in this scenario for a little more work?

[silverbullet]

Sounds like whoever did the engine swap didn't mod the dipstick properly to match the JX arrangement, so its been running on low oil the whole time.
Being polite about it, I4 engines in a T3 arent the nicest installation only the ZA style 15° truck ones are correct and put the engine as it would be in an Audi (inline with transaxle)

[Hansa]

didn't mod the dipstick properly to match the JX arrangement, so its been running on low oil

I did consider that, and I'm struggling to find an image with the sump off showing the correct level to compare.
Looking at mine below, it if was any fuller than the max marker, the counter weights would be hitting the surface, although I suppose when running the oil level would be significantly lower.

I've also just noticed there's no dipstick tube, which is possibly making the dipstick under-read as it is not held at the correct angle. I should have measured the oil volume when I drained it.

Not the best angle, I'll take a closer look tomorrow with a straight edge. 

[silverbullet]

You're the first seized AGG that I've heard about, what with the lack of baffle etc I'd say its probably down to being a botched conversion.
There are loads of TDI swaps out there and they seem to survive ok, the only snag detail for them is the turbo oil return to the sump (because of the block inclination, for the most part)

[silverbullet]

PS might be worth asking in the syncro section as there may be more specialist knowledge there.

[syncroandy]

Also check the dual oil pressure warning system is functioning correctly:

VW DOPS function on pre-97 VW's:

The dynamic oil pressure monitoring system gets inputs from two pressure switches.

One switch is closed with no oil pressure and opens when oil pressure rises to about 0.3 bar. (Black/Blue wire)

The other switch is open with no oil pressure and closes when oil pressure rises to about 0.9 bar. (Yellow wire)

The monitoring system uses the .3 (.25) bar switch below 2000 RPM and ignores the .9 bar switch. Above 2000 RPM the active switch is the .9 bar switch while the .3 bar switch is ignored.

A. Ignition ON, engine NOT running -- or -- engine running at LESS than 2000RPM (.9 bar switch is ignored)

1. Low oil pressure exists (below .3 bar), keeping .3 bar switch closed
 --Oil light: Flashes
 --Buzzer: Silent

2. Normal oil pressure exists (above .3 bar), opening .3 bar switch
 --Oil light: Off
 --Buzzer: Silent

B. Engine running at MORE than 2000RPM (.3 bar switch is ignored)

1. Low oil pressure exists (below .9 bar), keeping .9 bar switch open
 --Oil light: Flashes
 --Buzzer: Sounds

2. Normal oil pressure exists (above .9 bar), closing .9 bar switch
 --Oil light: Off
 --Buzzer: Silent

[silverbullet]

I asked one of the serial AGG converters, the knowledge is that the correct dipstick for that engine (when installed with the OEM tube) does need extending to 19.5 INCHES to read correctly.

The problem is that because of the block angle, 3.5 litres of oil vs 4.5 litres barely shows on the stick.

[Hansa]

Thanks for the information on the oil warning buzzer/light - I checked the wiring and the relevant wiring was not connected (I have an aftermarket digital dash conversion kit, not sure how it differs).

I found a bit of time to strip the engine down and the damage seems to be limited to the crank and oil pulley, which is almost completely seized. I plan to just regrind the crank & rebuild the bottom end (+ oil pump, water pump, cambelt kit etc.) and put this engine back in for now.

Despite the previous owner having a 'professional' engine rebuild last year they're re-used the original oil pump and made a few other mistakes which have probably contributed to the failure, I'm less worried about my drive being a contributing factor now.

Actually that's being too polite - they've made an absolute mess of the the rebuild, it seems like they've put extra effort into doing it incorrectly.

On the dipstick length topic, without understanding what I currently have and how that compares to standard 8v it's hard to follow.
But, seeing as I put 4.5L when I first got it and that lined up with the max on the dipstick, I beleive it is correct. 

[silverbullet]

The AGG is a sound motor and moving away from the I4 architecture will mean a lot of ££££ to fit something that wasn't really meant to live there.
I'd source a JX sump baffle though, VW went to the trouble of designing it for the T3 installation so it must be needed.

[Aidan]

I told Neil axeman of your woes - he should be in touch as he and Jes have a donor car available should you wish to continue with the AGG, and he has the skills and knowledge to help you do it right

[Hansa]

It's been a bit hectic here - I ended up with my 5 month old Polestar 2 having a HV battery failure which left me completely high and dry.
Had to organise a hire car until I got my old Mondeo MOT'd to keep me mobile.

The AGG block is damaged; the bearing journal is gouged and needs re-maching, the crank somehow doesn't have a mark on it and the oil pump strainer had loads of silicon in it. I contacted a few machine shops to get the bearing journals re-machined and larger bearings fitted but I got one quote of £800 if I left it with them for awhile and another said they had a 9 month waiting list - the others didn't get back to me...

I had a look round for a new AGG/block and there's not much available - the choice was between a 190k example and one which has sat outside for a couple of years. By time I'd spent £400 - £500 on one of those and then possibly need to rebuild it I'd have spent more than I want to on that engine, which I'm not a particular fan of. To be honest I'm pretty much just looking for an excuse to put something a bit more powerful in.

I'm viewing three EJ25 Subaru legacies this week and hopefully I will have one by the weekend as I've got the week after off to try and make some progress. I'll keep my main thread in Syncro forum updated from now on instead of this one.

All my AGG conversion kit should be up for sale in a month or I guess.



 

[silverbullet]

You do know that a 1.8 20vT can make up to 225 PS and bolt up to your existing engine mounts, sump and bell housing?
They are a known quantity too. EJ's are expensive to recon these days, sensors are expensive when/if you can get them.

[Stesaw]

You do know that a 1.8 20vT can make up to 225 PS and bolt up to your existing engine mounts, sump and bell housing?
They are a known quantity too. EJ's are expensive to recon these days, sensors are expensive when/if you can get them.

Like every engine, if you can find one that hasn't been ran into the ground.

[Hansa]

You do know that a 1.8 20vT can make up to 225 PS and bolt up to your existing engine mounts, sump and bell housing?
They are a known quantity too. EJ's are expensive to recon these days, sensors are expensive when/if you can get them.

I missed this post.
I had originally discounted the 1.8t as it would be cranked over on its side like the AGG and possibly suffer the same issues. Although now I suspect it isn't the cause.

I will take another look at the 1.8t - there is plenty available. For now I am just trying to find a replacement 2.0 block to get back on the road.

There's a 2E for sale but I understand it doesn't have the crank trigger machined into the block like an AGG. I'm not sure if the AGG ECU I have will work with a 2E distributor setup. I'm sure there's ways around it but it'll probably end up more expensive than finding another AGG.

[cobblers]

You definitely need the crank trigger for an AGG, a 2E block is no good (unless you get the whole thing and convert it, but it's a backwards step really)

If I had a van with I4 mounts etc, a torque limited 1.8T would be my choice nowadays.