Hand Brake

[King Kenny]

I had to do a hill start yesterday, when I pulled up the handbrake lever and released the foot brake the van rolled back. I find I have to pull really hard on the lever in order to have any effect. Is this usual for the T25 or can the efficiency be improved with new cables. The rear brake shoes were replaced last year and adjusted properly. The foot brake is fine. The condition of the handbrake cables at unknown and I think this is the way to go, unless you know better.
Kenny.

[itchyfeet]

sounds like bad adjustment to me
the adjusters on the shoes are to stop excessive brake pedal movement and for even breaking, the adjuster on the central rod is to make the handbrake pull up with just a few clicks.

jack it and make sure they pull up evenly and one doesn't bind then adjust the central rod nut to get the handbrake to pull up.

One more possability is shoes were not centralised when fitted, they tend not to do it automatically so you may need to remove drums and make sure they are approximately centralised, if not they just rub on one part of the shoe.

[captain Byrne]

Also make sure the backplate isn't bent & runs parallel to the wheel. I bent mine pulling off the drums a while back but didn't notice at the time. The shoes and drums were replaced but the brakes overheated and provided poor efficiency as only a small portion of the shoe was contacting the drum. Took me ages to figure it out.

[King Kenny]

Thanks guys. I will do as you both suggest as something is not right.
Kenny.

[California Dreamin]

One more possibility is shoes were not centralised when fitted, they tend not to do it automatically so you may need to remove drums and make sure they are approximately centralised, if not they just rub on one part of the shoe.

Where has this nugget of information come from? I've heard it said a few times and IMO it is complete rubbish..sorry itchyfeet...if the shoes aren't something near centralised the drums won't go on anyway, after fitment the shoes will make any remaining adjustment with several applications of the brake pedal.
To keep things working well, I would suggest a further adjustment (at the drums) after a couple of thousand miles or so.

The main issues are around 'adjustment' the absolute need to ensure the hand brake levers (on the shoes) are fully returning to their stops, and then and only then, adjust the balance bar wheel so the shoes contact fully then back off 3 - 4 clicks to set the clearance...then move back to the handbrake cable to remove the slack.

The other issue is that 'new shoes' on 'worn drums' take an age to bed in, typically only showing partial contact (30 - 40%) for the first 5 - 10 thousand miles..they can take over 15K before fully bedding in. The lower contact area of the shoe often remains untouched for much of their life.

Martin

[itchyfeet]

One more possibility is shoes were not centralised when fitted, they tend not to do it automatically so you may need to remove drums and make sure they are approximately centralised, if not they just rub on one part of the shoe.

Where has this nugget of information come from? I've heard it said a few times and IMO it is complete rubbish..sorry itchyfeet...if the shoes aren't something near centralised the drums won't go on anyway

Yes they will, if the adjusters are backed off.

seen shoes that are clearly not rubbing long the whole shoe.

[California Dreamin]

One more possibility is shoes were not centralised when fitted, they tend not to do it automatically so you may need to remove drums and make sure they are approximately centralised, if not they just rub on one part of the shoe.

Where has this nugget of information come from? I've heard it said a few times and IMO it is complete rubbish..sorry itchyfeet...if the shoes aren't something near centralised the drums won't go on anyway

Yes they will, if the adjusters are backed off.

seen shoes that are clearly not rubbing long the whole shoe.

The wheel cylinder pistons push the shoes to the drum from the top. The lower part of the shoes merely pivot on their fixed heel, to contact the whole length the drum setup would need to be double leading type, where there are two wheel cylinders (e.g early mini fronts) Typically, in a single leading 'fixed pivot' arrangement the contact point starts at the top and increases as the shoes wears. It can take a considerable amount of time for wear and therefore the contact area, to reach more than 70% of the friction lining.
And as I'm sure you are aware, the 'self actuating' shoe (the leading shoe) does the majority of the work and that is why it wears at a greater rate when compared to the trailing shoe.

So when you see shoes that are 'clearly not rubbing the whole shoe' you are viewing the first 50% of their service life...and therefore a perfectly normal wear pattern.
Although I must say, I believe some cheaper shoes and drums may well are not engineered to the same exacting standards as the originals and so the clearance between the friction lining and drum at these lower points may indeed be greater, exaggerating this wear pattern phenomenon.

Martin

[King Kenny]

Had a look this morning. It appears to be adjusted properly, as far as I can tell. The wheels are free to rotate on one click but are locked on two clicks but I can pull the brake lever a further 4 or 5 clicks. I'm thinking that the brake cables may be US and need replacing. Would new cables improve the situation?
Kenny.

[captain Byrne]

Have a proper look at the shoes. Are there any signs of irregular wear? Pay attention to the short sides at each end of the shoe, are they wearing parallel? If there is even wear then the next step would be the cables... but somehow I don't think that's the problem. Have you put the hand brake on tight & reversed? If the back of the van rises on one side more than the other then you'll know if you have a weak side.

[King Kenny]

Have a proper look at the shoes. Are there any signs of irregular wear? Pay attention to the short sides at each end of the shoe, are they wearing parallel? If there is even wear then the next step would be the cables... but somehow I don't think that's the problem. Have you put the hand brake on tight & reversed? If the back of the van rises on one side more than the other then you'll know if you have a weak side.

I will take a good look later and try reversing. I don't have much confidence on the cable replacement, just thought it may be a simple fix. Can you confirm that your handbrake holds on a hill just for comparison.
Kenny.

[what2do]

Have a proper look at the shoes. Are there any signs of irregular wear? Pay attention to the short sides at each end of the shoe, are they wearing parallel? If there is even wear then the next step would be the cables... but somehow I don't think that's the problem. Have you put the hand brake on tight & reversed? If the back of the van rises on one side more than the other then you'll know if you have a weak side.

I will take a good look later and try reversing. I don't have much confidence on the cable replacement, just thought it may be a simple fix. Can you confirm that your handbrake holds on a hill just for comparison.
Kenny.

My handbrake holds on a bliddy steep hill when pulled up about 5 clicks, hope that helps. However, when on a hill, it's my habit to steer the front wheel into the curb as I can't imagine the chaos caused by a runaway van.

[bigherb]

One more possibility is shoes were not centralised when fitted, they tend not to do it automatically so you may need to remove drums and make sure they are approximately centralised, if not they just rub on one part of the shoe.

Where has this nugget of information come from? I've heard it said a few times and IMO it is complete rubbish..sorry itchyfeet...if the shoes aren't something near centralised the drums won't go on anyway,
Martin

Probably because what you think happens and what actually happens is quite different.

[King Kenny]

"My handbrake holds on a bliddy steep hill when pulled up about 5 clicks."

Thanks, 'what2do', that's how I thought it should be. Mine holds ok on the level but rolls back on an incline despite passing the French MOT. I now know this is NOT normal and needs attention.
Kenny.

[King Kenny]

Just to let you know...I checked the shoes and they were fine and both were even on the reversing test . I then adjusted the cables until there was very little slack without binding the brakes. Off the ground the brakes lock tight on the second click. I took her out to try on a steep hill by our house, the same one that it slipped back on before. I am glad to report she held firm with far less effort on the brake lever. Thanks Guys.