Where to get the very best wasserboxer?

[itchyfeet]

without replacing bottom seals (which is NOT a simple extra task)

Well I have done it and I can't agree.
By the time you have removed the engine, stripped the heads, cleaned it all, refitted heads, replaced engine, this is a relatively small job and it is is not difficult.

[Trundler]

Well, I hadn't removed the engine!

[jimrat]

This bloke doesn't replace the bottom seals, and he seems to know what he's doing?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIQmqVRx23M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

[itchyfeet]

Oh I see VW manual is wrong and this bloke on Youtube knows best.

You make your choices and then live with them, personally I don't want to have to worry every time I go on a long journey, do it right, do it once.

[Trundler]

Here's another article by 'a bloke' who doesn't necessarily replace the bottom seals...

http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/www.bosto ... boxes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think, like so many things, it all comes down to assessing the risks: How old is the engine? When were the bottom seals last done? Did the cylinders stick to the head when taking the head off? Mine didn’t. Have you any reason to assume the seals are suddenly no longer good enough to do their job?

Also, how cost effective is it to do the extra work? If the engine is out and on a stand then it would seem to make sense but, as the bloke on You Tube says, once you start taking the liners out you are well on the way to an engine rebuild.

My engine was still in the van. I was paying a garage to do a cylinder head replacement so didn’t want to tear the engine down any further than was strictly necessary. I didn’t want to pay any more than it was already going to cost me (which was quite enough thank you) so made the decision not to do the bottom seals and so far all seems fine.

It’s the kind of decision an engineer has to make all the time. You don’t always have the luxury of slavishly following the manual. In any case, I wonder if the VW manual referred to is not talking about overhauling the engine rather than just replacing the cylinder heads. During an engine overhaul you’d obviously replace the bottom seals.

[NicBeeee]

It’s the kind of decision an engineer has to make all the time.

Would have to be an engineer that likes a gamble which perhaps in my opinion is an oxymoron, if you have a good name as an engineer then you simply wouldnt risk it, if I was asked to do something that may or may not be okay then I would refuse. Thing is even though the liners didnt seem to move they are still releasing pressure on the seals so they must move a little which in turn can alter the sealing. Still I hope things turn out okay for you

[Trundler]

Do you work as an engineer? I do. In the aircraft industry as it happens...

Any engineer knows that compromise is often forced upon us. It simply is not realistic to expect the perfect solution all the time, especially not where cost considerations come into it. This doesn't mean a bodge is good enough (God forbid) but it does mean that the vast majority of engineering solutions in the real world involve compromise. The art of the engineer is being able to judge which compromises are acceptable and which are not, then come up with a solution that is fit for purpose.

Do you think VW would have signed off the WBX for production if the bottom seals really were as dodgy as is being suggested?

[itchyfeet]

Do you think VW would have signed off the WBX for production if the bottom seals really were as dodgy as is being suggested?

I'd say the seal is a great piece of engineering, the fact that many do get away without replacing it after many years of service in a dirty water jacket proves that.

Yes you can probably get away with it and it may last years but my point is it's really not hard to do it right ... espe ially if you want 'the very best wasserboxer' which is the point of the thread

[NicBeeee]

Do you work as an engineer? 30 years service
Do you think VW would have signed off the WBX for production if the bottom seals really were as dodgy as is being suggested?

. I dont think they planned on them lasting 30 years service.

Couple of hours to remove engine, a couple more to remove cylinders, easy work for any engineer, and you have yourself some confidence in your vehicle. I think an educated compromise is where you fully understand the variables, not knowing the condition of a variable is a compromise too far, particularly when a negative outcome is worse than the original problem.

In respect to the best waterboxer I personally think the 1.9DG is fine as is, after rebuilding ours we have traveled 20,000 miles without engine issues, it will cruise at 70 but we choose not to as we are never in a rush, it climbs hills and mountain passes happily and with simple electronics I am confident to be able to fix the majority of issues as and when, and I know what spares to take. Perhaps the best waterboxer is not the fastest or the most economical but also one that will get you from A to B when B is in the middle of no where.

As said sincerely hope all goes well

[Trundler]

Itchy, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Having read a number of accounts of doing the cylinder removal and replacement and what is involved in the task, I (and the garage that was doing the work for me) decided it was too much extra work to justify – especially with the engine still in the van. With the engine on the bench it would be a different proposition.

I made the judgement based on the fact that the engine was rebuilt only three years ago with new seals (I’ve checked) and has only covered 20,000 miles (yes, I've checked, only 20k on the 2nd replacement engine) since then. Plus the fact that the garage assured me the cylinders had not moved when the head was removed. I don’t believe that taking the pressure off the bottom seal and then recompressing it when the new head is fitted should cause any problem. After all, this happens to a tap washer every time you turn it on and off and it survives that for a few thousand times before failing, even on a hot water boiler. You’d be quite unlucky to get a foreign body trapped in there and if I had, that would have become apparent by now.

NicBeeee, thanks for the best wishes. I agree regarding the 1.9DG – I had one in my previous 2WD van and always thought it was adequate. A Syncro with the 2.1DJ is not really that much faster.

There’s a tendency in all of us to seek greater power and torque but in truth we wouldn’t be driving these vans if we were really seeking that. A T4 or T5 TDI is MUCH faster, especially as a motorway machine but, as you say, we are rarely in a rush!

When I posed the original question about the very best WBX I was thinking of reliability rather than performance and that was because my relatively young engine had developed a serious fault and I was blaming that on the quality of the build of the Elite engine. I now believe I was in error. The reason the fault occurred was because of the failure of a coolant hose, and me allowing the engine to overheat (read Go Westy’s website for another example of this happening). Any engine relies on its needs (particularly cooling) being met!

I now hope the engine runs reliably for a while but if I were in the market for a new one I would probably seek a higher-quality build next time, if only for the warm feeling of confidence that gives.

Thanks for all the input

[itchyfeet]

I made the judgement based on the fact that the engine was rebuilt only three years ago with new seals (I’ve checked)

...Elite engine....

Fingers crossed for you

Seriously, if you have to get a garage to do it they will factor in potential problems removing barrels and give you a high ' don't want to do this' price, I can see why you took the decision.

[itchyfeet]

I will just leave this picture here

[what2do]

I will just leave this picture here

For my benefit alone, please explain what it is that I can't fathom from the pic.

[Smiffo]

I'm guessing the bottom seal that has been discussed here?

[itchyfeet]

I'm guessing the bottom seal that has been discussed here?

It is indeed a brand new lower barrel seal with all it's roundness

he said bottom ...snigger