Starting problems

[vanhatter]

Hi all,

I've had a look around the forum, but can't see any description of quite the same situation that I have.

Since the end of Summer, the van only ever starts up 2nd time. The 1st time, it turns over (does sound a bit slow sometimes) but that's it. 2nd time, it starts up after a moment or two of turning over. Once it's started, it starts up very easily for the rest of the day (even if it was only running for a minute the 1st time - no driving). As it starts 2nd time, I put off looking into it. Then the other week it wouldn't start at all - after multiple attempts it eventually wouldn't even turn over. This was about 4 am, so I'm sure my neighbours loved me. I've cleaned up the earth on the battery, and replaced the one on the engine ('twas a bit sorry looking). The voltage on the battery was reading just over 12V and I put it on charge. These things got the van starting again, but now I have the same situation I had before so want to get it sorted.

Given that topping up the battery seemed to have helped, it would suggest that might be problem (the voltage is currently 12.57, but I haven't done a load test). The battery is 3 years old but has spent about half that time not doing anything as the van was off the road (but has been used fairly regularly for the last year). Also, when I topped it up, the starter did turn over quicker (the battery was at about 13V then). However, I remember last summer when it wouldn't start after multiple attempts (fairly early in the day and in the shade - so maybe it was too cold?), someone tried helping with a battery booster which got it turning over quickly but not starting (then only got it going with a bump start). Am I wrong in thinking that b/c even when it was turning over quickly it didn't start, this means the fault isn't with the battery?

Any thoughts on why it only likes to start on 2nd attempt but is then fine until the next day would be appreciated!

Thanks!
Andy

[CovKid]

It will pay you to nail a few things. Try tipping half an egg cupfull of fuel down carb throat before you start it in the morning. If it fires up pretty well straight away, insufficient fuel delivery could be hampering things. Have you removed and cleaned starter connections (disconnect battery first)? Are the battery connections as secure and clean as you think? How old are the plugs? Finally, 3 years can be enough for some batteries but providing the fuel and spark is there, it should fire up almost immediately.

[vanhatter]

Thanks CovKid,

Gave the trigger wire a clean today, it came off the terminal in my hand (fairly sure that's what it was from your video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNKSeAAd3rk) and made sure it started after I put it back. I just went to put the van on ramps to get better access to take the others off to clean them, and the van wouldn't turn over. I jiggled the trigger wire and tried again, only response was a short chug. I tried taking the wire off and putting it back but that didn't do any good. Checking the voltage on the battery, it was at 12.4 (from 12.57 just a short while ago!). So, I've now got the battery charging again and will try in the morning. I'm fairly confident in the battery connections.

No idea how old the plugs are, but I guiltily know they should have been replaced by now.

Where is the carburettor throat? (bit of a novice I'm afraid).

Cheers

[California Dreamin]

Sucking eggs I know but you do know how to set the choke on cold start? One single 'full stroke' of the throttle pedal, then crank (don't touch the throttle pedal at all!)
3 years and you haven't changed the plugs? what does the distributor cap and rotor arm look like?
It might be advisable to remove the air box on the carburetor (cold), have someone press the accelerator once, to see if the choke butterfly automatically shuts under bi-metalic spring tenshion (that the choke mechanism is setting itself).

That 'trigger wire' spade connector really needs to be properly connected! I mean a spotlessly clean stripped wire with a properly crimped spade connector.

Martin

[vanhatter]

Thanks Martin. You really can't over explain anything to me, I have so much to learn! For instance, what should I be looking for with the distributor cap and rotor arm? Shamefully no, I've not changed the spark plugs, but it is on my list!

OK, so tomorrow I'll make sure the trigger wire is on solidly and set the choke (thanks for explaining how). Then hopefully I'll be able to check the butterfly. If that's not the problem I'll put it on the ramps to check the other connections to the starter.

Apologies for the basic Q, but by air box do you mean the air intake trunking from the air cleaner housing?

Thanks again

[vanhatter]

Martin, just realised you might have meant this as the air box?

[CovKid]

Correct. Just undo the nuts/washers and set them aside.

[CovKid]

Get that starter motor off and give all the terminals a good going over with a wire brush, As martin says, trigger wire connection important.

Sounds to me like old plugs, a battery not in its youth, and general neglect. If you've got fraying/corroded cables under there, it won't help. Pictures would be good.

[vanhatter]

Thanks CovKid.

OK, so this morning's update:
I checked the the butterfly (at, least what I think the butterfly is, photo below) while the other half pressed the accelerator all the way down and nothing changed. When I pushed the butterfly gently with a finger it reset to its original position.

butterfly.jpg

After replacing the air box I put the battery back in having charged it last night (again to above 13V). I turned the key without touching the pedal and the engine started almost instantly 1st time - something I don't remember it ever doing.

I've taken photos of the connections to the starter / solenoid. Things look a bit rusty.

Am about to order new spark plugs and will check the state of the battery later today to see if the voltage drops like I saw yesterday.

[CovKid]

Starter:

That lot definately needs cleaning. Bit of a squeeze but could (just) be done in situ, but better if you disconnect battery and unbolt starter entirely. Disconnect battery first as starter is always live. Once off, two nuts need undoing and connectors need to be shiny bright. As should spade and male connector. New 13mm nuts wouldn't go amiss. You might consider replacing oilite bush that starter runs in. They go oval which can seriously slow motor down. Lots on here regarding getting bush out. New one under £2 from GSF. Doing all that should at least improve starter spin speed. Check condition of braided cable that goes into starter.

[vanhatter]

Thanks again CovKid. Will give cleaning a go.

Have just ordered a couple of bushes (in case I damage one), new spark plags and connectors (mine are v rusty), new distributor cap and rotor arm as mine look a bit burnt (to my inexpert eye, but they're only a few quid each if not). Hopefully all of this will sort it out. Will post an update once done either way.

Cheers

[California Dreamin]

Lots of suspects there....the main feed to the 8mm post looks 'green'.
The braided wire 'solenoid to starter body' doesn't look right.
The 8mm nut to eyelet looks very corroded.

All in all, there is plenty to do.

Martin

[CovKid]

The braided connection can corrode and even break away at either end. Heres mine after I removed the end cap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNKSeAAd3rk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[haydn71]

Good post, keep it coming. Our van keeps burning distributor contact points and rotor arms so this is very useful.

[vanhatter]

Hi all,
Haydn: this is the state of my distributor cap before I replaced it. No idea how old it was, no mention of a replacement in the service history.

distributor cap.jpg

Also took the first spark plug out (only one, as I'll explain in a bit). Looks like this

Spark plug (rear NS).jpg

Which, based on what Haynes says, means it's running rich. How do I fix this? Also, a basic Q, but what's the difference between 3 electrode plugs and 1 electrode plugs? The new ones have 1 electrode.

I've not done the others, because as I tried to put the new spark plug cap on the new plug, it didn't go on all the way. I've already tried the new caps on the old plugs, and they fit fine. Comparing the two plugs reveals there's an extra bit (technical term, I'm sure) on the new plugs:

new vs old spark plugs.jpg

(new plug on the left).
Am I right in thinking that this extra bit just unscrews? It looks like the old plug may have had a similar thing. Again, probably showing my ignorance big time here.

Thanks!