CV Bolts have come loose

[pirate-pete]

Have just done a routine check under the van and found the N/S outer CV bolts all finger tight or should I say finger loose. Looks like I caught it just in time before it let go completely. Can't say I have heard any clunking or anything. Strange they come loose now as I have never removed this side before and they have been tight in the past four or five years whenever I have checked. Two bolts out of the six have sheared off so will be removing the driveshaft at the weekend or earlier if it stops raining after work so I can clear the broken bits from the flange. Had some new bolts in the van spare but have ordered a complete set with the proper washers as the ones which have come loose are missing the lock washers so I may as well replace the lot.

Ideally I would strip down the joint now but have a fair bit of other work to do this coming weekend and so question is can I just get away with just replacing and tightening the bolts and waiting until later in year to overhaul the joints properly for peace of mind. Or could it be wear in the joint may have caused them to come loose. Have checked Wiki and don't think there is any excessive up/down or rotational play. Would I be right in thinking if the joint was worn enough to be in danger of letting go then I would know well in advance from clunking or feeling definite play.

[CovKid]

Just tighten them up properly and check the bolts from time to time. Its just one of those things. Sometimes you get a warning - sometimes you don't.

[ELVIS]

Are the wrinkly washers in place under the cap head bolt heads?

[pirate-pete]

Just tighten them up properly and check the bolts from time to time. Its just one of those things. Sometimes you get a warning - sometimes you don't.

Cheers - hoping that would be the case. Reassuring to get a second opinion.

Are the wrinkly washers in place under the cap head bolt heads?

They weren't on the old black bolts but they are now with the silver replacements from Brickwerks. Come the weekend I'll be replacing the inboard ones in case those are missing the washers too. At least the spreader plates were there.

[CovKid]

You can roughen up ordinary washers if you get really stuck. I've done that a few times over the years and they've never come undone. In the end its down to torquing them up enough though. A couple of years ago I bought a whole box of those high tensile bolts with torx heads for a fiver from a local bolt stockist. Was better than the £36+ VW wanted for them!

[pirate-pete]

Follow up as managed to get home early tonight.

Removed the driveshaft - only one lock washer present on the inner although they were still tight. Managed to get the broken bolt ends out fairly easily by twisting them out with a small electrical screwdriver. As still light decided to strip the joints with intention of repacking with grease. That bit went well too with my normal circlip pliers able to remove the clip and then the shaft just dropped out on both ends. Unfortunately luck ran out there as on cleaning both joints had some visible wear and one or two areas of bad pitting to the inner race. A couple of the ball bearings were a dark browny silver too so they are now with my little one as extra marbles. A pair of GKN ones just ordered so hopefully will have those fitted by Friday evening.

[CovKid]

LOBRO brand also good.

[pirate-pete]

LOBRO brand also good.

Think Lobro and GKN are the same.

Got them from Mr Baxter anyways so will see what box they turn up in. Learnt my lesson not to buy cheap bits long time ago, Fine if you want lots of practise replacing them every year but my thinking is if it managed to last 10, 20 , 30 years or whatever in the first place I want the same quality for the replacements.

[CovKid]

My MOT guy who must be in his 70s and adores classics of all eras, was talking about this as I've been gradually replacing everything underneath. As he points out, some parts you can buy are nowhere near as good as what you intend to replace. CV joints have always been a no-compromise thing but I've discovered over time that if the new CV joint looks incredibly shiney and doesn't show evidence of bluing from hardening of the bearing surfaces, its almost certainly a cheap chocolate one and you should steer well clear.....

[pirate-pete]

New ones all fitted now with new bolts and lock washers all around. Will retorque after 100 miles or so.

Took a look at the old ones and they are stamped with the VW logo and Lopro with a date code of 4/83. Since my van is a 1983 one these could be the original joints. If the clock is right it has done over 430000 km.

The ones from Brickwerks were GKN Spidan Part No 22407 so if anyone wants a bargain check out this half price listing on the bay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GKN-Poa-Cv-Jo ... 0876685968

[croc]

Thanks for this post and particularly for the debrief on the condition of your old CV joint being pitted.
At the risk of offending those of you here with more experience and knowledge of these vans than I, I have a theory that the reason these bolts loosen and shear - after 25 to 30 years - is because the CV joint becomes pitted with use over this time and the additional vibration starts to loosen some of the bolts.
This is a reasonable thing to happen after so many years of hard work.

It seems to me that these bolts have stayed tight for this length of time that something must have changed for them to loosen and then shear.
I'm sure it happens in that order, some loosen then they start to shear.

So I suggest that if anyone just replaces or re-tightens the bolts withouit checking the CV joint(s) after they loosen then its almost certain to happen again.

Any slight pitting or browning is a sign of terminal wear, replace the joint!!!

Apologies to anyone offended, I know many comments are made in good faith to just replace and tighten the bolts with proper washers - but I have faith in my theory that the wear/pitting of the CV joint has caused the problem!!

[pirate-pete]

Good points croc. Something has made them come loose as they have seemed tight whenever I have checked them. Once they start to come loose there is not much holding them in so the last ones in will shear. I can't believe how lucky I was in catching it before getting stranded. I know these ones have not been left undisturbed for 30 years as I can tell from the bruising to the inner hubs that something other than a factory tool was used to get them belted onto the shaft in the past.

Now the joints are clean I can post up a picture of the dismantled joints. The worst pitting is in the front inner race in the pic. Apart from that pitting in just the one groove the rest of this inner race was just slightly worn. Polished yes but hard to feel with your finger. The other inner race didn't have the pitting as bad but every ball track had deep grooves in. The camera has picked up one quite well on the left track. I'm wondering if this has been refitted back to front at some point as the worn groves were on both sides of the track. The cages are not too bad - in fact they hold the balls in place better than the brand new one. Just a couple of the balls are in that picture but you can't really see the brown colour rather than the silver. The outer race has got the wear grooves but not as bad as the inner race. Can feel these easily. I didn't bother cleaning the other outer but don't think it was too bad. It was only the bad pitting to the single ball track which made it not worthwhile to regrease that joint.

[croc]

Yep, quite right Pete to replace those joints.
You were lucky to catch it in time and not get stuck on the road!!
I'm sure that amount of pitting would lead to bolt problems in the near future, even with cleaning and new grease.
It doesn't take much wear or pitting as the case hardening in the tracks is very thin, fraction of a mm.
Of course if bolts found to be loose when out on the road, tighten them to get home but should still be checked.

We were lucky too, after 3000 miles through France, Spain and Portugal I found the n/s had sheared 3 bolts on the inner flange! and yes, pitted CV joint tracks.
Mine are M8 x 48mm, high tensile socket head.

Happy trouble free travelling!