WBX head seal job = Get a garage to do it ?

[123-jn]

I've just popped to the shed to check the lower o ring seals from my engine that I removed when I rebuilt it. The engine had done 114000 miles roughly and they are in remarkably good condition, they still have some give in them and are round in profile. I reckon they would have resealed if no dirt got in during the process. The top seals were another story. They still had a bit of give but were caked with rusty sludgy deposits and were flattened in places these would have been a dead loss. There must be more heat near the top seals which doesn't help. I have to change one of my head on my recently rebuilt engine as one of the reused heads has cracked slightly causing steam in the number 2 exhaust port and valve guide. I will not be changing the lower seals and will be changing it with the engine in the bus. fingers crossed!!

[vanagain]

The upper cylinder o-rings are always crap. They are sometimes unrecognizable. If you didn't know they were there, you would have thought that the upper part of the cylinder was just sealed with the metal compression ring. Which makes me wonder what the upper cylinder o-ring actually does? I mean when you take it apart and the thing is crusty, baked, flattened to the same size as the cylinder itself and as hard as a barnacle, it would tend to make me suspect that it's ability to seal was compromised many years ago. Yet the engines that I see to have head gaskets replaced usually are failing externally, not internally. So what I suspect is going on is that the upper metal compression ring is also sealing out coolant from the combustion chamber as well. The green o-ring was an engineers idea of how to keep coolant out, but in reality it probably only actually works for a few years and then turns into a barnacle once the cylinder and head start to corrode. Maybe the corrosion seals it after the o-ring is dead? Of course I always clean up the groove, and replace these green ones. Even though I sometimes wonder what good it actually does....

Have a great Thursday!

[itchyfeet]

I suspect if you use a good concentration of coolant the upper seal will work for a long time, its purpose imo is to stop coolant corroding the compression seal and to stop tge liners corroding to the head

the big problem is these cooling systems leak and people dont refil with the correct ratio of coolant so the seal mating surfaces corrode and its then a slipery slope to seal failure.

[ghost123uk]

Re getting a garage to do it. Firstly, Ken, I don't care how much Itchy is joshing you (joshing = English slang for having a "dig" in a light hearted friendly way) about lower seals, if you were in the UK I would be at your doorstep with my van (I am sure you offer a warranty on your work).

Reason I am posting this =

I have just had a pm from someone who, like I "am/was" planning, drove a long way to Elite, and had a "new" engine fitted, only for it to break down on the way home, (finding head seals pi$$ing coolant, plus an oil leak and the dreaded exhaust stud stripped and "over drilled" coolant leak). Not at all re-assuring. Yet others, some well known on here have had no issues and some have used them more than once (owning several vans, not "come backs").

My drip has slowed to the point it doesn't leave any mark on the road, so I may hold off a while whilst I consider the options. In line 4 GTi perhaps I would need a one stop shop for that though

Just wish there was a totally reliable place for this sort of thing. Shame Brickwerks / Simon (link for Ken) doesn't like WBX's

[Simon Baxter]

Trouble is, everything for them is expensive.
We do them here, head seals that is but if it is anything more than head seals then I think it's better value just to put an engine in.
We have to guarantee our work, we can't do that with second hand parts so we use new parts.
If you need a head, a barrel or a piston and the labour then it's just not worth it.
Customers book them in, we tell them about the head studs and the cost of spares and advise them they may need an engine.
We then strip it, if we can fix it we will, if we can't or the total of the parts is too much we simply get the customer to buy a engine and get it delivered to us.
I've wasted too many hours fixing problems with "recon" engines and lost out big style we simply don't supply them anymore, we get the customer to find a supplier they are happy with, keeps us out of the picture then and we don't feel bad when the "new" engine doesn't work as it should [as usually what happens]
The amount you get for labour from these engine companies for doing warranty work for their mess up is pitiful, and we loose out doing other paying work because of it.

[ghost123uk]

Have you ever considered offering a "one stop shop" service for WBX to GTi conversions ? (just thinking out aloud)

[vanagain]

I feel the shop's pain when dealing with these engines. I used to do what this other fellow is describing. I would get an outside rebuild shop to do the engine, get the customer to get the engine through that person, and then just do the install. However after years of struggling with problems with the rebuilders, I finally came to it that it is better for me to rebuild my own engines in house for our customers. I look at it this way: no matter what I am going to take care of my customers. If they have a problem with a rebuilt engine from a rebuilder, I am most likely going to go the extra mile, pull the engine, replace it, etc. and the rebuilder is going to make up all kinds of reasons and excuses as to why the problem happened and do their best not to pay me any money for my extra time and efforts. In this scenerio I get nothing except good will from the customer which is worth a lot but doesn't really help pay the bills. When I rebuild the engines myself I get to charge the full price for the engine which includes profit for me. Then if there is a problem (since I know all of the issues that some of the rebuilders had over and over, I actually know what to avoid) then I have the profit money from the engine sale to help pay for any extra time I have to invest. That is just my take this. Your results my vary...

[dbz864]

Like John (ghost) says im amazed that someone dosnt do a drive in conversion for these engines,ie gti or similar.I know there are people but as far as I can gather they charge mega bucks.Plenty of work for someone, as these vans get older its going to get worse.
My thouights on elite are, they seem to have been in business for a while, so think of the fact, if tthey keep getting that many comebacks would they still be in business? Would they want to keep building them? My guess is that the vast majority of the engines are ok! As usual you only get to hear of the bad ones and before anyones thinks! ive never met or done business with elite.
Try guaranteeing a van, never mind just a engine!

[ghost123uk]

My thoughts on elite... My guess is that the vast majority of the engines are ok.... usually you only get to hear of the bad ones

This is true of course, even on here folk rarely post to say "I've had no problems with my van this year". They only post when they need a hand or an opinion on a problem. Elite's ebay feedback is very good too. I am still a bit nervous about taking mine to them to do the head seal

Remember (and note to self) I did get a pm from a regular on here (who prefers to be anonymous in this) who has used Elite several times on their "collection" of vans and has not a bad word to say about them

[Simon Baxter]

GTI Is a simple conversion, finding the second hand parts isn't, it's time consuming.
If people bring all the parts, we'll do them but at the moment we have 6 weeks worth of bookings left before September... We just don't have the time to be sourcing second hand stuff for customers...
Going back to the WBX though.
To rebuild a WBX properly would cost £1000's.
People in this country simply wouldn't pay what it costs to do the job with new parts so that's half the reason why we are in this position.
An industry has grown up out of refreshing these engines, but I'm sure half the time they are stripped and cleaned and put back together with the bare minimum to last the warranty period.
I've done several that have had low oil pressure from installation, cracked heads, strange noises, re-drilled exhaust studs off centre so the exhaust won't line up..

[Simon Baxter]

GTI Is a simple conversion, finding the second hand parts isn't, it's time consuming.
If people bring all the parts, we'll do them but at the moment we have 6 weeks worth of bookings left before September... We just don't have the time to be sourcing second hand stuff for customers...
Going back to the WBX though.
To rebuild a WBX properly would cost £1000's.
People in this country simply wouldn't pay what it costs to do the job with new parts so that's half the reason why we are in this position.
An industry has grown up out of refreshing these engines, but I'm sure half the time they are stripped and cleaned and put back together with the bare minimum to last the warranty period.
I've done several that have had low oil pressure from installation, cracked heads, strange noises, re-drilled exhaust studs off centre so the exhaust won't line up..

[ghost123uk]

GTI Is a simple conversion, finding the second hand parts isn't, it's time consuming

I bet somewhere there will be a list of what is required.

"The list" (as they say in the camping section)

An "AAG" engine (is that the most common one to use ?)
Cross member off a Diesel T25
Bellhousing off a Diesel T25
Sump off a Diesel T25
Oil pump pick up off a Diesel T25

Exhaust manifold ?
Exhaust ? (custom I suspect)
Fuel pump, type ?

[vanagain]

I have done and seen my fair share of engine conversions. When I first started out we did a 5-cylinder conversion out of an Audi GT Coupe with parts from South Africa. When Tiico (4 cylinder from SA as well) came along we did a few of those and they were the easiest since everything was included (still needed to do a few mods and welding here and there). Today there are Subaru kits and Ford Z-tec conversions being done on a regular basis here in the US. To me the way to go is as complete of a kit as possible. The Bostig conversion is the best for this since it is very complete. The problem with any conversion is that there is a fair amount of time being spent modifying parts, welding, splicing together wiring harnesses, reading wiring diagrams, etc. When you are done it is always MORE expensive than the stock rebuilt engine unless you do all of the work yourself which requires you to be an expert in welding, fabrication, wiring, electrical troubleshooting, fuel injection troubleshooting, etc.

Yes I could put together a short list of items that, if you bought them, you could bolt an inline 4 cylinder GTI engine into a Vanagon. But that is just the first step. It needs to have a cooling system, it needs to have a wiring harness, it needs to have an exhaust and intake, etc. I "finished" a conversion one time for a customer. He bought it on ebay (ABA engine with motronic FI from a 97 Jetta) and the guy that sold it told him it was 90% done because the engine was mounted up inside the van. When I got it I saw that it was going to need another 40 hours of work and a bunch more parts. The customer freaked out, started telling me that it was almost done and that I was going to finish it in ten hours, really going off on me. I hung up, and called him right back. I told him to come and get his van and find someone else to work on it. He called me back in about 30 minutes and was all apologetic. He told me to take whatever time it needed and whatever it cost and he wanted me to get it done. It took me at least 40 hours to finish and probably another $2000 in parts. So just my part of the conversion was around $6000 plus whatever he paid for the van on ebay.

My opinion, try to find a rebuilder that does a great job on the waterboxer. They may charge a bit more, but it is well worth it in the long run. If the customers don't have the money, I encourage them to sell the van to someone else. If you can't afford to maintain it properly what is the point of owning it? Putting in low quality rebuilds just perpetuates the false sense that the OE motors were never reliable. Yes they can be very reliable. If you take the time to rebuild them right.

Conversions are a mixed bag. It really depends on how good of a job the person doing it initially does. Usually they wind up being a science experiment that never fully comes to an end. Not my idea of a reliable vehicle.

Just my opinion.

[Simon Baxter]

What he said. ^^
Trouble is that there really isn't anyone rebuilding them properly!
Little to no choice, plus if there was the majority wouldn't pay, you just have to look how many are roller paining their vans to understand the culture of cobbling things together with cable ties, washing machine drain hose and chocolate radiators.
Some people buy the vans because they want a T3, some just want a camper and would be equally as suited in a Fiat or Renault.
Horses for courses.

[itchyfeet]

chocolate radiators..