Tired starter

[jimrat]

Hi

My van (2.1 DJ) really struggles to turn over on the starter. It turns once or twice, pauses for a second, then turns again and fires up. Is this normal? I realise it's a high compression engine, but it sounds like it could give up tomorrow

I bought the van in Sept 2013, but have only just started using her daily. I noticed that the previous owner fitted a recon starter in May 2013, and also an auto electrician fitted a new regulator and battery in March 2013. So it looks like this might be a long-running issue.

I've tested a few electrical things and cant find a problem:

V-belt is tight and earth leads are secure.
Battery voltage 12.7V with engine off; increases to stable 14.6V with engine at fast idle.
When I put the battery on to charge, the fully charged light comes straight on.
There's no leisure battery or split charge relay

I thought I had found the problem the other day, as I found there was a current drain from an incorrectly fitted stereo head unit. However, after fixing that, the problem persists. I did noticed that even with the head unit supply fuse removed (fuse 3), I got a residual voltage of 0.5V

So my questions are:
Is 14.6V from the alt too high? Some people on here seem to be swapping regulators to get higher voltages, but Haynes recommends 14V max??
Is my battery too small - its a type '065', rated 420CCA / 50Ah
What could cause the residual voltage in the head unit supply. When I pull the fuse the voltage decays slowly - is this a bad earth?
Sorry for the lengthy post
Cheers
Jim

[itchyfeet]

Could also be the main cable is corroded at the starter end or the trigger wire is corroded at the starter end or the ignition switch is faulty or the gearbox to body earth strap is corroded

Clean up the earth strap first then You can do some tests by using a fresh fused trigger wire from battery to starter to bypass that wire and ignition switch

If its still slow then you need to bypass the main cable with jump leads be careful and don't let then short to body

Don't be tempted to remove starter to test it, starter needs to be fitted as it only has one bearing


Don't worry about the higher charge voltage sounds like battery is ok

[itchyfeet]

Just to be sure its not the battery measure its voltage after leaving it overnight to rest
If you measure straight after charging you get an artificially high reading

[CJH]

If the starter is actually firing then I'd say that puts the trigger wire and ignition switch in the clear I think. My money is on the high current circuit that actually feeds the motor - either the main cable or the route back to earth. So check the main cable and the earth straps as Itchy suggests. The route to earth is via the starter body to the engine block and gearbox, which are then earthed to the vehicle body. So although you say that the earth straps look secure, they could well be corroded and limiting the current flow. It would be a good idea to remove and clean up both ends of the gearbox earth strap and the body end of the battery earth strap.

[itchyfeet]

If the starter is actually firing then I'd say that puts the trigger wire and ignition switch in the clear I think..

I have read that's not the case, bad contacts means the solenoid may not be fully clamped into position, no personal experience.

[CJH]

If the starter is actually firing then I'd say that puts the trigger wire and ignition switch in the clear I think..

I have read that's not the case, bad contacts means the solenoid may not be fully clamped into position, no personal experience.

Fair enough. I had my starter apart recently, and it was clear that even a very slight movement of the plunger was enough to close the switch in the end of the solenoid to pass current to the motor. But I'll admit that my starter appeared to have the opposite problem (spinning the motor when it shouldn't have) so it's probably not a good example to quote!

I'd still start with the earth straps though. I once had a car where all the voltages checked out OK, but a corroded battery earth terminal meant the contact area was so small that only a small current would pass - enough to register a full battery voltage on a multimeter but not enough to turn the starter.

[itchyfeet]

one other thing I just remembered there is a braided strap from the solenoid to the starter, this carries the main starting current from the solenoid to the motor, it's not fully insulated and it can corrode badly, worth inspecting it to see if its crumbly, it can be replaced apparently but never done it myself.

[AdrianC]

My van (2.1 DJ) really struggles to turn over on the starter. It turns once or twice, pauses for a second, then turns again and fires up.

Ours does exactly the same - worse when hot. I reckon it's the spigot bearing for the starter nose, in the bellhousing. I've got one, just haven't got round to doing anything with it yet.

So my questions are:
Is 14.6V from the alt too high? Some people on here seem to be swapping regulators to get higher voltages, but Haynes recommends 14V max??

It's the upper end, but won't cause you problems.

Is my battery too small - its a type '065', rated 420CCA / 50Ah

It won't help keep the starter churning for ages, if ever needed, but you've already said the battery's fully charged, though, so that isn't the problem.

What could cause the residual voltage in the head unit supply. When I pull the fuse the voltage decays slowly - is this a bad earth?

On the stereo side, presumably? Quite possibly just a capacitor inside the head unit discharging. It won't be an earth issue.

[jimrat]

Hi

Thanks for all the replies. I've re-checked all the earth straps, cables, and connections, and all are OK. So must be the starter motor bush - is that a main dealer part - don't remember seeing it on Brickwerks etc.

I still haven't resolved the residual current issue. Just to clarify, this is what I'm seeing: with the head unit disconnected, I put my multimeter probes on the earth and +12V supply wires (at the connector block)- I see 12.7V. The + 12V supply is protected by fuse 3 - if I pull the fuse, the voltage drops to 1.5V, then drops slowly to 0.5V.

Any ideas?

Cheers
Jim

[AdrianC]

So must be the starter motor bush - is that a main dealer part - don't remember seeing it on Brickwerks etc.

http://www.brickwerks.co.uk/index.php/b ... etrol.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I still haven't resolved the residual current issue. Just to clarify, this is what I'm seeing: with the head unit disconnected, I put my multimeter probes on the earth and +12V supply wires (at the connector block)- I see 12.7V. The + 12V supply is protected by fuse 3 - if I pull the fuse, the voltage drops to 1.5V, then drops slowly to 0.5V.

Any ideas?

That voltage must be coming from the head unit itself, then - so, yep, almost certainly a capacitor.

[jimrat]

The head unit is not connected - I've disconnected the head unit and I'm reading these voltages at the terminals in the connector block which pushes into the back of the head unit

[AdrianC]

The head unit is not connected - I've disconnected the head unit and I'm reading these voltages at the terminals in the connector block which pushes into the back of the head unit

Ah, OK. I'm with you now.

The fuse isn't only for the stereo. Something else on that circuit - clock, probably - must have a capacitor in.

[Johnmck]

Hi don't want to hijack this but I have a similar problem, very slow to turn over almost stops now and then but then fires up. I was thinking was starter needed refurbishing/replacing. Wondered if you had replaced the bush- how hard/ difficult and if that had sorted things. Is a CU Aircooled

Thanks
John

[orangebooboobearcrew]

Hi don't want to hijack this but I have a similar problem, very slow to turn over almost stops now and then but then fires up. I was thinking was starter needed refurbishing/replacing. Wondered if you had replaced the bush- how hard/ difficult and if that had sorted things. Is a CU Aircooled

Thanks
John

I have changed the bush on our 2.0 Aircooled couple of years ago. Pretty easy tbh - took me about half an hour. Hardest bit was getting the old one out - used a tap I think from memory to draw it out.

Unfortunately we've still got slow starter problem and voltage drops to about 12v when lights and wipers on - don't know if this is normal? Gonna go right through the system whe get time to sort...

[jes*b]

I have same symptoms on 2.1 . Two slow turns , pause, fires. Do we think we have a common fault as the symptoms are identical or could we have a variety of faults that lead to the same result? If its the first then hopefully someone will be along soon that has had this problem and fixed it and ill try that fix first