240V Conversion

[Amyrose765]

Has anyone out there converted a non 240V camper to have a mains hook up and how easy is it. I have a 1983 Devon Moonraker that is all on 12V but would like to get this converted to run off mains when at camp sites that have this. Would this require changing all the electrical items inside such as the fridge? Does anyone know any good companies in the Lincolnshire area that would do this?

[kevtherev]

hello and welcome.
seems a lot of work and expense changing lights and fridges over.
far easier to install a zig unit and keep the batteries topped up whilst on hook up.
As for the fridge
There are three way fridges out there that will replace your 2 way.
But IMHO running it on gas is just as good and won't cost a penny to convert.
Tow sure sell all the hook up equipment you'll need.

[Oldiebut goodie]

Quite frankly I would not bother - add a couple of solar panels for the same money and then never bother with campsites. Haven't used them for over 40 years and don't see the need.
There are no great benefits from having 230v onboard - phones, chargers, tv, etc can all be run from 12v.

[lloydy]

i'm all for keeping off the 240v, but..... i have fitted it to mine, sort of.. i have the hook up connected to a mains charger that is connected to my leisure and starter batteries. Everything in the van is 12v. 240v is just used to charge the batteries on extended campsite stays.

[California Dreamin]

I'm with Lloydy on this one...get yourself a proper leisure charger (10 amps or higher) some decent battery capacity (at least 100ah) and then just keep the leisure charged. All you need to do then is find 12 volt adaptors for phones and TV's etc.
This does work with the fridge (running on 12 volts) but as the fridge is drawing something around 8 amps the leisure charger needs to be a fair bit higher to cope and have some excess other than just replacing what the fridge is taking.
I guess the only real drawback is the really heavy consumers like a 2KW oil filled radiator or blow heater (for winter camping...assuming you haven't got propex).

Martin

[CJH]

Hi Amy

A factory installation, or a refit from scratch, might well use a Zig unit of some sort. These will typically include a mains charger for your leisure battery and a number of fused 12V circuits from which to run your lights, water pump etc. To convert to such a setup you'd need to move your 12V circuits from the battery to the Zig. Not difficult, but as others have said, not strictly necessary. If you leave your 12V circuits connected to your battery, then you could, also as others have said, simply add a mains battery charger. If the current rating of the charger is at least as high as the total current draw of all your lights, radio, pump etc, then it will effectively be powering those circuits when you're hooked up, and any left over current will top up your battery.

Getting mains power into your van will require a hook-up socket, usually cut into an external panel, and it is good practice to run this to an RCD fuse box inside the van (see here for my effort). Although others have suggested you don't need to have 240V sockets (because you can get 12V versions of most chargers/adapters), the mains battery charger is going to need a socket (tapped off the fuse box), and if you get a fuse box with a couple of circuit breakers you could easily add a couple of 240V sockets so that you can plug in that oil filled radiator if necessary.

[RedGus]

... it is good practice to run this to an RCD fuse box inside the van (see here for my effort). Although others have suggested you don't need to have 240V sockets (because you can get 12V versions of most chargers/adapters), the mains battery charger is going to need a socket (tapped off the fuse box), and if you get a fuse box with a couple of circuit breakers you could easily add a couple of 240V sockets so that you can plug in that oil filled radiator if necessary.

It is not just "good practice", but a requirement of the regs (17th Edition Wiring etc) to have:

• A 30mA double pole RCD
  
• Earth bonding between the incoming supply earth and the bodywork of the van
  
• Double pole circuit breakers for the circuits in the van (nb not the single pole ones that you have in your house)
  

See here:

Camper and caravan part of Regs link

As has been said before, a metal box in a damp field is a pretty hostile environment for mains voltage supply, and needs to be treated with a bit of respect.

I would definitely agree with what others have said about not doubling-up between 12V and 240V, though. As said, you can run almost everything on 12V or gas, charge the batteries with a mains charger whilst on hookup, and have the possibility of plugging in an appliance every now and then to a mains supply. Otherwise, when not near a hookup, you are just lugging around a load of redundant 240V equipment.

James

[CJH]

James

Thanks for the link to the regs. More by luck than judgement my own installation meets these requirements (ok, the double pole RCD/fusebox was judgment, but the earth bonding was luck - seems the original factory Zig installation took care of that).

While I wouldn't for one moment suggest doing anything contrary to the regs, it made me wonder about the coverage of those regs. Do they apply only to caravan and camper manufacturers, or do they also apply to DIY installations? What about installations by a third party electrician in an existing camper? And I presume there's no requirement to bring old installations up to current regulation standards, but if any new work is done on an old installation does the whole system have to be brought up to current regs?

[Oldiebut goodie]

The general opinion on the Self Build forum after much searching, reading, chewing over etc. was that they only applied to actual manufacturers/new van converters. But that didn't stop any recommendation to follow them. It just makes sense to do so.

[RedGus]

Do they apply only to caravan and camper manufacturers, or do they also apply to DIY installations? What about installations by a third party electrician in an existing camper? And I presume there's no requirement to bring old installations up to current regulation standards, but if any new work is done on an old installation does the whole system have to be brought up to current regs?

Well, that's an interesting point. And one to which I'm not sure there is a definitive answer, but here are my thoughts (for what they're worth):

• The Regs, as applied to buildings, are controlled by the Building Regs Part P, and define what is "notifiable". In a building, if work is done by someone other than a "competent person", it needs to be checked and certified by one.
  
• Again in buildings, the 17th Edition would apply to a new circuit, or substantial changes to an existing one, with certain specific things - like replacing a consumer unit - included.
  
• There is no requirement to bring an existing system up to current regs, but if work is done to a circuit, it must be done to the current standard.
  
• The 17th Edition Regs set out requirements for installations in campers, but they appear to be less specific about obligations and notification than is the case in buildings. What they don't appear to say is, "These Regs only apply when a camper is first built/converted".

So, I would argue that they clearly apply to all new installations in campers, or substantial modifications to existing ones. It would be fairly pointless, IMHO, to go out of your way NOT to comply with the 17th Edition Regs because if, God forbid, a fire started or someone was electrocuted, insurance companies and maybe the coroner would be looking for someone to blame. The thing is, they are actually pretty straightforward to comply with, because our types of installation are so modest.

Any professional electrician is going to be working to the 17th Edition Regs anyway, but might be less familiar with the camper parts if they more usually work in building situations.

James

[billybigspud]

The 17th edition is indirectly the law so must be adhered to on new installations/modifications. Everything is great if you do not until something goes wrong and that is where the problems will start. Everyone is very quick to point out about load ratings on tyres regarding insurance companies. Same applies to this. You kill/hurt someone by not complying then you are for it.
Like a lot of the regs, some are very grey and you can make of them what you will but get it wrong and again you are for it.
The part P thing is interesting because it is a domestic dwelling of sort and seeing as it is a ' special location ' then it could apply and be notifiable even though I would not bother.
Please just be careful and make sure you know what you are doing if you do undertake something like this yourself as electricity can be nasty.

[jamesc76]

I find it a bit odd (unless I missed it) it doesnt state anything about the actual cable used within the van, ie mutl strand rather than twin and earth, as twin is solid and can and does crack after a period of time, where as multi strand lasts a lot longer

[billybigspud]

Selection and erection is all about choosing the right equipment for different conditions and applications. Again, it is unto you what you select as it is a guide but get it wrong and it is your problem. This is why electricians that do all the work i.e., design install and test have a fair bit of responsibility as unlike gas for instance, everything is not so black and white.
For example, there is no regulation about putting sockets over sinks and all this measurement stuff is a myth but would you really do it? No, unless it was correctly IP rated but nothing directly says you cannot.
Whoever wrote them are a bunch of sloped shouldered wot nots if you ask me but without rule bending nothing new would ever be introduced.

[kit]

Off topic slightly, I was told only last week that a washing machine cannot be situated in a bathroom if you could touch it from the bath, is that right?

[billybigspud]

if it had the right IP rating for the position and was on a spur not a socket then it could. If all circuits in the bathroom are rcd protected or supplementary bonding is in place then you can put a socket 3m horizontally from the edge of zone 1 or 2 (can't remember which) but personally would not.