No Spark!

An alchemy of sparks, copper wire and earth

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KittyCamper84
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No Spark!

Post by KittyCamper84 »

Hi, just after a little bit of advice if I may!

Our van has been sitting quite a bit lately, but was used for Brighton breeze last. When I used it the other day it developed a misfire. I checked it out: checked the cap and rotor, checked the leads, ran it and traced the misfire to the left back cylinder (as you look at the engine from the back), checked the plugs, did a compression test. All items seemed ok. During the compression test, I had removed the king lead from the coil, and now after the test I have no spark at all! There is 12v to the coil, but no spark??!! :evil:

My question is, is it likely to be the coil or that module thingy??

Any help much appreciated!!!!

Jeremy
Jeremy Cooper

1969 Singer Chamois ( sold :( )
1970 Hillman Imp (Violet)
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ghost123uk
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Re: No Spark!

Post by ghost123uk »

Hi Jeremy,

I think you have it nailed already. It is very likely to be one or the other. Reason = when you spin it over with no king lead, the 10's of thousands of volts have nowhere to go. The result is they jump to the nearest earth, which in this case is likely via the VERY fine windings in the secondary part of the coil, damaging it in the process.

However, that module is full of delicate electronics and those high voltages flying about could have found their way down the low tension wires into the module and damaged it. Additionally the same could apply to the hall sensor (a type of transistor) in the dizzy.

iirc, there is summat in the wiki about measuring the 2 windings inside coil for resistance. That might show summat with the coil.

The other 2 parts are best tested by substitution, starting with the ignition module because it is the easiest!
Do you have anyone near you you can borrow those parts off (from a running van) for just long enough to discover the culprit ?
Got a new van, but it's a 165bhp T4 [shock horror] Accurate LPG Station map here

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Re: No Spark!

Post by ghost123uk »

PS = should have said, for future reference, best practice re avoiding the above is to remove either all the wires off ONE (**) of the low voltage spades on the coil, or carefully pull the 3 wire plug off the side of the dizzy (it's held in place with a little springy metal clip)

(**) ONE = so you don't get them on them mixed up on re-connecting them.
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KittyCamper84
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Re: No Spark!

Post by KittyCamper84 »

Thanks for the reply!

Do I need a specific coil or will any one do? I have a few lying about in the garage! Does the hall sensor give the coil the signal to pulse? if so then it could be that the coil is ok and the module is preventing the signal getting to it?

Also, could any of these things have caused the misfire? i'm wondering if something was on the way out and ive finished it off during the compression test?

Jeremy
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1969 Singer Chamois ( sold :( )
1970 Hillman Imp (Violet)
1984 VW T25 Pop Top (Kitty)

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Re: No Spark!

Post by ghost123uk »

KittyCamper84 wrote:
Do I need a specific coil or will any one do? I have a few lying about in the garage!

You DO need a specific coil. They will be on the brickwerks website HERE. They are identified by the colour of the sticker on them. They will also list hall sensors and ignition modules, but as mentioned, a temporary swap is a good way to go ;)

KittyCamper84 wrote:Does the hall sensor give the coil the signal to pulse?

Yes

KittyCamper84 wrote:if so then it could be that the coil is ok and the module is preventing the signal getting to it?

Yes

KittyCamper84 wrote:Also, could any of these things have caused the misfire? i'm wondering if something was on the way out and ive finished it off during the compression test?

Possibly.

If you have no sparks, try this, carefully !!

Take all the wires off the low voltage terminals of the coil.

WRITE DOWN what went where, don't trust your memory !

Arrange the king lead so the dizzy end is fastened (tie wrap etc) so it's end is a couple of mm from some bare metal on the engine.

Connect a bit of wire from one of the low voltage terminals of the coil (does not matter which for this test) to a bare bit of metal on the engine. You can do this in a very "temp" fashion, ie, just wrap the bare bit of the wire around say the alternator bracket, or go posh and secure it under a random bolt.

Now the bit were you have to be a bit careful. Get another bit of wire, thin is good here, like a bit of ordinary speaker wire. Then carefully connect a jump lead from the +ve terminal on the battery. Watch out for the other end as it is live with 12 volts. No danger of a shock, but don't let it touch any metal on the van or you will have a heavy duty short ! (same precautions as when jump starting). Now connect your thin bit of wire to the other end of the jump lead. Now "flick" the bare end of this thin wire across the other terminal of the coil. Note = "flick" it across, don't hold it on, and hold the wire by the plastic bit with just a bit of bare wire visible. You will (should) get a bit of a spark from the coil terminal during this "flicking it across" procedure, but that is normal and not important. What you DO want to see is, as you flick it across the coil terminal, can you see a decent spark coming from the king lead to the engine block ? If you can then chances are pretty high your coil is OK.

Reason = What "we" are doing here is simulating what goes on when the engine is running, all be it in a simplified form. ie, a permanent 12 volts on one terminal of the coil, with the other side getting very short pulses to earth. In an older vehicle with points, this is exactly what the points do.

By the way, it takes less time to do this test than it does to write (or read) it :lol:

Just take care with the live end of that jump lead (or if you don't have a jump lead, improvise ;)) as I say, no danger of a shock from it, but don't let it accidentally touch summat.
Last edited by ghost123uk on 05 Nov 2013, 15:26, edited 1 time in total.
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KittyCamper84
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Re: No Spark!

Post by KittyCamper84 »

Just checked the coil as per wiki, found correct resistance on the primary windings but open circuit on the secondary windings! :P

So that confirms the coil has gone, question now is, could that be the cause of the misfire or am I going to still hunt for that!!!!

Jeremy
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1969 Singer Chamois ( sold :( )
1970 Hillman Imp (Violet)
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Re: No Spark!

Post by ghost123uk »

KittyCamper84 wrote:Just checked the coil as per wiki, found correct resistance on the primary windings but open circuit on the secondary windings! :P

Doh and just after I wrote all that above :roll:
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Re: No Spark!

Post by ghost123uk »

ghost123uk wrote:Reason = when you spin it over with no king lead, the 10's of thousands of volts have nowhere to go. The result is they jump to the nearest earth, which in this case is likely via the VERY fine windings in the secondary part of the coil, damaging it in the process.

And it looks like my first guess was correct 8)
Got a new van, but it's a 165bhp T4 [shock horror] Accurate LPG Station map here

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KittyCamper84
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Re: No Spark!

Post by KittyCamper84 »

Ha yes, thanks for the help! I will get a coil and will start again! I may be back here in a few days for help with the misfire if its still there!

Lesson learned!!! :oops:

Jeremy
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1969 Singer Chamois ( sold :( )
1970 Hillman Imp (Violet)
1984 VW T25 Pop Top (Kitty)

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KittyCamper84
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Re: No Spark!

Post by KittyCamper84 »

Ok so fitted the new coil and still nothing!!!!! :evil:

Looking at different options now as cost of new module/hall sensor or both is too much! I have some Lumenition systems that I could use but they wont fir the current dizzy. does anyone know if an older points dizzy would fit and would there be much difference in the advance curve?

Hope someone can help!!!!
Jeremy Cooper

1969 Singer Chamois ( sold :( )
1970 Hillman Imp (Violet)
1984 VW T25 Pop Top (Kitty)

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Re: No Spark!

Post by ghost123uk »

KittyCamper84 wrote: does anyone know if an older points dizzy would fit and would there be much difference in the advance curve?

Yes there will be a difference, don't go there ;) (thinks, 009 = :run )

Normal practice here, other than being sure that every thing is wired up correctly, is to replace one thing at a time to identify the faulty part. This is usually done by "borrowing" a known good part off another working van.

If I was in your situation (ie not knowing any other T25 owners in your area) I would be asking on here if anyone lives near you that could assist to that end. A new thread titled "Anyone live near Midhurst West Sussex" and some suitable text should produce summat.
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KittyCamper84
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Re: No Spark!

Post by KittyCamper84 »

Ok, so an update! I have replaced the coil and the module, replaced plugs and checked timing. Still no spark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:

What am I missing?????
Jeremy Cooper

1969 Singer Chamois ( sold :( )
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Re: No Spark!

Post by BOXY »

I would guess one of the three wires that connect the plug on the dizzie to the hall switch inside could have broken.
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Re: No Spark!

Post by tobydog »

KittyCamper84 wrote:Ok, so an update! I have replaced the coil and the module, replaced plugs and checked timing. Still no spark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:

What am I missing?????
How did you check the timing?
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KittyCamper84
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Re: No Spark!

Post by KittyCamper84 »

I checked the timing by setting the engine on tdc firing on number 1 piston and checked the rotor arm lined up with the relevant pluglead. its not accurate, but would tell me if it would run or not!

Since then I have checked the hall sensor output and found it to be a constant 6.6v, not 12v-0v-12v etc.

Decided to modify the dizzy to accept a lumenition optronic setup as we had one going spare, now just got to time it up and get it running!
Jeremy Cooper

1969 Singer Chamois ( sold :( )
1970 Hillman Imp (Violet)
1984 VW T25 Pop Top (Kitty)

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