AAZ Turbo Oil Leak

[maverickMechanic]

Hi,

I am having problems with an AAZ in a 1982 T3, Synroc-nutz did the original conversion. The engine has always
used oil. After trying most everything valve stem oils seals etc etc. I decided to buy a reconditioned AAZ. This was
supplied to me, although I have since discovered it is a 1Z block with an AAZ head though I am assured this is the
same setup! All the other gear comes from the original AAZ bar the oil pump which was supplied as new with the
recon engine. Block is plugged with the turbo return oil pipe going into the sump.

I have also had the turbo reconditioned by Midland Turbo. The turbo is a KKK K14 (068 145 703H) the original was
fitted by Syncro Nutz when they did the engine conversion.

Exhaust and manifold is original JX and as I understand it a JX Turbo, so should be situated the correction position
to be able to drain.

After timing up the new engine it started first time but I noticed that the turbo was leaking oil through its seals and blowing into the exhaust and the inlet
manifold. I sent the turbo back to Midland turbo. They checked it and apparently there is nothing wrong with it.
They tested it at 3 bar oil pressure and tell me all was fine.

The oil return pipe that I had fitted was the standard JX one from Brickwerks.
http://www.brickwerks.co.uk/index.php/t ... td-jx.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I decided to try the one that is specially designed for the AAZ
http://www.brickwerks.co.uk/index.php/t ... 3-aaz.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, even though the inside diameter is
smaller and the unions are smaller that the JX one. The JX one also seemed to be a good fit and not
kinked!

Both types of return pipe seem to have the same issue the oil is pi**ing out both sides of the turbo?

Wanted to try and get to Busfest but hope is receding fast been working on this engine for so long now

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Regards

Peter

[dekhelia]

When you say oil is coming out of both sides of the turbo ... what do you mean, exactly? You have an 'inlet' to the turbo from the oil filter, and an 'outlet' from the turbo to the sump. Both these connections are leaking?

[dcfb77]

Sounds like oil is not draining from the turbo... On mine I found the turbo is too low to the sump oil return on aaz with the K14. I had the same issue and had loads of oil coming from my exhaust and in the turbo air intake hose. I had a manifold made up so the turbo sits higher and oil return line made up from various ones I had lying around including 2x sharp bends at the start & exit of the hose to help with gravitational side of things and oil drains freely back into the block like it does originally with an AAZ (NOT TO SUMP). Photos here: http://db.tt/GKzOnm3w. Never had the problem since.

Could be other things too though so dont throw money at a manifold. Are you sucking in oil maybe? maybe through the rocker cover breather? have you got both rocker cover breather hose setup or just the one? Noticed less oil in turbo air intake when I had both fitted. I presume a small amount of oil is always going to be there, especially on fast right hand turns!

Good luck.

[syncroandy]

Peter, plenty of people are running about with AAZ setups like yours, so don't lose heart, it shouldn't be necessary to re-engineer it all. If anything the turbo will be a tad higher on the AAZ than the JX (taller block), so oil return flow should be slightly improved. Do you have an oil pressure gauge ? IME startup pressures from cold can easily be 5bar. Did you actually run the engine up to normal temps after fitting the recon turbo, or did you just stop at the first sign of oil ? Possibly the turbo needs to be run a bit. Did Midland say what they'd fitted ? Maybe they used an aftermarket cartridge that has a different seal arrangement to the original KKK one.

[max and caddy]

Hi, first of all how much oil do you have in there? 4.5 liters max is correct including the filter...if your going of the dipstick it's almost certainly wrong. Drain and refill to verify.

Secondly..a 1z block is dimensionally suitable as a replacment for an AAZ but the pistons are very different as the AAZ ones have no swirl bowl in the tops...if you have 1z pistons in your block it will result in a lower compresion ratio, should run ok etc but won't be optimum.

Another point...the oil filter housings have a small valve or choke in them...there a possibility this could be causing to much oil to feed to turbo although to be honest the 1z is more likely to have the choke fitted rather than omitted...and the JX turbo is least likely to need it! so that's kinda backwards but worth bearing in mind if problems persist.

When you say it's pizzing oil out...how much? It quite normal for a a running hot engine to have a steady stream of oil slowly spiral up the outlet turbine housing with the boost hose removed..boost helps the impeller to seal.

What oil are you using? Oddly I have found I get less smoke at start up with thinner oil..so I'm using 5w 30 fully synthetic PD spec oil. I guess it drains away quicker.

Moving the turbo upwards is not needed! Lots of folk using AAZs without custom manifolds with no issues..mine is AAZ with standard JX turbo and a very thin looking braided drain tube it had on the JX engine when I got it..works fine despite looking feeble. A simple test to ensure the turbo can drain is to remove the drain from the base of the turbo..and hold it at the level it would be if bolted on...no oil should come from the sump out the pipe!

See you at Busfest!

[maverickMechanic]

Peter, plenty of people are running about with AAZ setups like yours, so don't lose heart, it shouldn't be necessary to re-engineer it all. If anything the turbo will be a tad higher on the AAZ than the JX (taller block), so oil return flow should be slightly improved. Do you have an oil pressure gauge ? IME startup pressures from cold can easily be 5bar. Did you actually run the engine up to normal temps after fitting the recon turbo, or did you just stop at the first sign of oil ? Possibly the turbo needs to be run a bit. Did Midland say what they'd fitted ? Maybe they used an aftermarket cartridge that has a different seal arrangement to the original KKK one.

Hi, first of all how much oil do you have in there? 4.5 liters max is correct including the filter...if your going of the dipstick it's almost certainly wrong. Drain and refill to verify.

Secondly..a 1z block is dimensionally suitable as a replacment for an AAZ but the pistons are very different as the AAZ ones have no swirl bowl in the tops...if you have 1z pistons in your block it will result in a lower compresion ratio, should run ok etc but won't be optimum.

Another point...the oil filter housings have a small valve or choke in them...there a possibility this could be causing to much oil to feed to turbo although to be honest the 1z is more likely to have the choke fitted rather than omitted...and the JX turbo is least likely to need it! so that's kinda backwards but worth bearing in mind if problems persist.

When you say it's pizzing oil out...how much? It quite normal for a a running hot engine to have a steady stream of oil slowly spiral up the outlet turbine housing with the boost hose removed..boost helps the impeller to seal.

What oil are you using? Oddly I have found I get less smoke at start up with thinner oil..so I'm using 5w 30 fully synthetic PD spec oil. I guess it drains away quicker.

Moving the turbo upwards is not needed! Lots of folk using AAZs without custom manifolds with no issues..mine is AAZ with standard JX turbo and a very thin looking braided drain tube it had on the JX engine when I got it..works fine despite looking feeble. A simple test to ensure the turbo can drain is to remove the drain from the base of the turbo..and hold it at the level it would be if bolted on...no oil should come from the sump out the pipe!

See you at Busfest!

Guys thanks for the posts as ever

This is a new engine so I did the 4.5L measurement at empty and ground a new 'max pip' on my dipstick so I am confident of the oil level. The engine was built as an AAZ with a 1Z block being the only difference. The crank sensor hole has a grub screw in it that is the only difference to the AAZ according to AW Engineering who built the short block. The rest of it was off the original AAZ.

I thought the turbo was the bit chewing up the oil however I found my missing oil this weekend. When hot the oil cooler was failing and sending the oil into the coolant. Bypassed the cooler with a piece of 15mm coper pipe between the 2 hoses, once the engine comes up to pressure oil gushes out. This was despite removing it and pressure testing it when cold it is fine. Picked up a new one from GSF fitted it today and now have no oil use. I also fitted an oil pressure gauge, from demon tweaks see http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6005 ... -gauge.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, really nice setup for a T25 D

There were still drips of oil on the bottom of the turbo. However today I took the inlet manifold off and cleaned everywhere. When I was timing the engine I had spilt some oil from the rocker area behind the inlet manifold. When it was getting hot it was leaking down and dripping making it look as though it was still coming from the turbo. I think Baxter's new pipe did in fact fix most of the issues with the turbo not draining. The first time round there was loads of oil in coming out both sides of the turbo.

I ran the engine with the boost pipe removed, plugged the lower end of the rocker breather from the saucer PCV valve where it goes into the inlet and put the end of the pipe into a clear plastic bottle. At cold I have 5 bar of oil pressure and no oil coming into the inlet side of the turbo. Once the engine gets up to full temp (1.5 bar on idle), as "max and caddy" describes there is small spiral of oil blowing up the turbo see, http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6005 ... et-oil.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I am using 15w 40 mineral oil to run the engine in.

Still not completely convinced, hoping Andy is right and the turbo needs to be run a bit. Going to drive it this week back and forth to work and monitor any oil use, fingers crossed I'll see you at Busfest in the Westy

Cheers Peter

[maverickMechanic]

Sounds like oil is not draining from the turbo... On mine I found the turbo is too low to the sump oil return on aaz with the K14. I had the same issue and had loads of oil coming from my exhaust and in the turbo air intake hose. I had a manifold made up so the turbo sits higher and oil return line made up from various ones I had lying around including 2x sharp bends at the start & exit of the hose to help with gravitational side of things and oil drains freely back into the block like it does originally with an AAZ (NOT TO SUMP). Photos here: http://db.tt/GKzOnm3w. Never had the problem since.

Could be other things too though so dont throw money at a manifold. Are you sucking in oil maybe? maybe through the rocker cover breather? have you got both rocker cover breather hose setup or just the one? Noticed less oil in turbo air intake when I had both fitted. I presume a small amount of oil is always going to be there, especially on fast right hand turns!

Good luck.

Thanks for the reply, not coming through the breather bypassed it to check. This was all working before the recon I am hoping it will work the same again without loads of re-engineering Who did all your manifold fabrication on your syncro looks very professional?

cheers

Peter

[max and caddy]

That's oil pic is totally normal...the positive boost pressure shoves the turbine back against the seal and stops the leak...and as you say it may reduce with use.


See you there...we are the guys in the in the single cab syncros!

[dcfb77]

I was just saying what worked for me... I just wasnt confortable with the oil draining like it was with the original height of the turbo thats all. When I used to "tweek" rotary engines some years ago, the way/angle oil drained out of the turbo was very important. Wrong flow rate resulted in turbo's leaking oil and eventually blowing seals. They were running very high pressure...

What oil are you using? If they've put new piston rings during the recon they may take a while to bed in so a bit of oil going past them at first until they bed in is relatively normal. I used less protective oil (SAE 30) for a a thousand km's and then switched to 10/40 which is what VW say to put in the golf AAZ.

As he said about the dipstick... Make sure you've got that right. If you've done it, marked the dipstick, recheck with another 4.5l's just to be sure. Make sure your van is level when you're doing this.

How much oil are you using?

Exhaust manifold was made by Fastroad in Ashford.

[maverickMechanic]

BAD NEWS

Ran it to work this morning with the bottom end of the breather hose from the PCV into a clear plastic bottle and the connection on the inlet manifold tube blocked up. It had run like this for at least an hour on the drive!!

When I got to work oil is gushing, yes gushing from somewhere at the back of the engine. Switched it all off as was in the work car park, haven't received a call from security yet! As far as I can guess its coming from the dipstick or the main crankshaft oil seal. Not sure how much oil is left in the engine. Going to check at lunchtime.

What the heck has happened now!!!

[maverickMechanic]

Update.

That PCV valve really does a lot me thinks. Unless it is busted, I think it is doing its job. The oil was from the dipstick. Made a right royal mess. Having a job where you can do car mechanics at lunch time helps. Cleaned up the oil as best I could; reconnected the PCV to inlet breather pipe; carefully re-filled with oil took about a litre; went for a test drive and so far no catastrophes!

Just-in-case made some enquiries for that PCV Valve (PNo 028 129 101) but nobody seems to have one!

Cheers

Peter

[max and caddy]

Erm...summits not right here..you haven't put the breather pipe onto the inlet manifold (JX) blow off valve have you? I think some pics might help..never known the UFO puck to fail ever!

Also if your engine is pushing ou oil at such a rate you need to disconnect any conection to the inlet as your in real danger of a runaway engine situation and that's bad...real bad..

[maverickMechanic]

Erm...summits not right here..you haven't put the breather pipe onto the inlet manifold (JX) blow off valve have you? I think some pics might help..never known the UFO puck to fail ever!

Also if your engine is pushing ou oil at such a rate you need to disconnect any conection to the inlet as your in real danger of a runaway engine situation and that's bad...real bad..

No the breather goes from the puck to a connection on the plastic pipe between the air box and the inlet side of the turbo. The other connection on the puck is a plastic moulded affair that connects to the crankcase breather. This is all back as per the original AAZ install. No oil blowing out anywhere all seems ok.

I don't think the puc has failed was just going to replace it given its 20 yrs plus old. It would seem that it's critical
to crank case pressure so wanted to be sure.

I'll try and post some pics tomorrow morning.

[max and caddy]

That's ok there then...bit odd its pumping oil up the dipstick tho..

[maverickMechanic]

That's ok there then...bit odd its pumping oil up the dipstick tho..

Replaced the PCV valve with an original from VW, just for good measure and taking no chances.

Here are some pics - note the cable-tie has been replaced with a proper clip, this was from my carpark fix

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6005 ... intake.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6005 ... to-puc.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I still have a tiny drip of oil from the outside of the turbo. Going to do a few miles this week as only done 200 Km, monitor oil usage then try and make it to Busfest

Note to self check AA Recovery is up-to-date