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Hi folks. I know it's a been a long time since I've shown my face around these parts. After I sold my syncro a while back I hadn't much reason to be here frankly. Anyway I have a T25 again! It's a blue 1987 leisuredrive in need of TLC myself and my girlfriend picked up for a song but I'm doing an engine conversion on it now. I'm puzzled at this point now.
When I was doing the swapover from the 1.6 to 1.9 engine, I noticed the flywheels were considerably different between the 2 engines. The 1.9 had some weird flywheel where the flywheel itself made up part of the pressure plate and the part mounted to the crankshaft was a sort of pressed steel mounting plate for the whole operation. It looked smaller than the 1.6 flywheel too, so considering the 2 engines share the same basic block design I swapped over the flywheel. So the 1.9 engine now has the 1.6 flywheel, and this is where problems start. The starting motor gear broke completely after a few starts with the new engine when it was initially put in. I reckoned at the time that it was because it was stuck against the flywheel because of a problem with the motor itself but when I inspected the motor it seemed to be fine otherwise. I wasn't present when the engine was installed and I never did find out if the part of the sheared gear was retrieved from the bellhousing which made me uneasy. I took off the gearbox from the engine today to reveal this...
(They aren't shards of metal by the way. They're chips in the bellhousing casing)
So far as I can tell, there's a clearance issue with the flywheel in the bellhousing, and I cannot understand why this would be. Can anyone enlighten me? Should I have used the flywheel that came with the AAZ? Is there some sort of spacer between the crank and the flywheel that I might have missed? The sheared piece of the old starter gear never did show up so the lad who fitted the engine for me must have retrieved it when he removed the old starter. The new starter sounds god awful when cranking the engine too, and yet it does turn it. I didn't run the engine for long when I heard all this racket and it's certainly not been driven like this. To me, it actually looks like the flywheel is sitting too far out from the crankcase but I have no way of knowing for sure.
JX flywheel, clutch, starter should be fine. Fresh spigot bearing fitted into end of AAZ crank, assemble as per manual and jobs a good un. Sounds like your installer cacked it up somehow. Looks like the JX poo-plate has been left out BTW.
Syncrosport (taking a break as of summer 2024)
Volkswagen Transporter, reloaded.
I was there myself when the flywheel was getting changed over. I thought all was done right. It looked like there was more offset on the flywheel on the 1.9 but I put that down to using the aaz plate that goes behind the flywheel. Maybe I was wrong though? Were there ever spacers used on these engines?
Anyone else any other insight? (Not that I don't appreciate your input, Andy. Thanks!). I'd like to get an idea what could have been done wrong so I know what to do. The van is 90 miles away from me so I can only do bits on it at the free weekends so I want to try and gather as much info as possible before I head down this coming weekend. I really don't want to have the van undriveable beyond this coming weekend if I can help it.
Maybe the starter pinion was just on its way out and let go at the wrong moment ?
If flywheel and clutch have been assembled correctly and the engine turns over OK, pop the gearbox back on, and make sure you can turn the engine over by hand through a full 360 degrees to ensure there's no contact with the bellhousing. Put your fresh shiny new starter on and give it a go.
PS. you might want to clean off and re-lube that release bearing where it runs on the guide and where the fingers contact, don't forget to lube the spigot bearing too. Poo-plate sits between the block and flywheel, you should be using the one off the JX.
Syncrosport (taking a break as of summer 2024)
Volkswagen Transporter, reloaded.
It does turn without contact so far as I can tell. The thing that worries me now is the noise in the bellhousing while the engine is running (maybe the release bearing is fecked) but the starting motor sounding like death trying to turn the engine while grinding, clunking and skipping teeth can't be good. I'd just be worried the other starter will break too.
What's the poo plate by the way? Maybe I can refit it.
Anyone else any ideas? My feeling is that the flywheel is sitting further from the AAZ engine than it did on the 1.6 and I can't figure out why this might be. Has anyone had to do any machining work or remove any spacers at all when swapping engines?
Ross
the pooh plate as it is known is the thin pressed steel plate that fits to the flywheel seal housing on the engine and protrudes down behind the flywheel to seal against the face of the bellhousing thereby keeping pooh out of the clutch assembly as otherwise you have a big gap at the bottom where there is a cut out to provide access to the sump bolts that are behind the flywheel - obviously this is only 1mm thick but if not fitted could be causing part of your issue - the car's pooh plate will be different and won't fit with our bellhousing so you need to swap across the JX one before fitting the flywheel, and might as well replace the flywheel crank oil seal while you are there if there's any sign of oil leakage
the mark where the clutch cover, cover bolts, or cover locating dowels is contacting the inside of the bellhousing is not uncommon on hybrid engine installations - I'd check that the locating dowels haven't been drawn out of the flywheel when clutch cover has been removed and that you have the correct cap headed bolts fitted
has a new clutch been fitted or is it the one that was on the JX originally ? Which brand, which part numbers ?
which vehicle did the AAZ come out of ?
the JX flywheel and clutch set up on an AAZ should work fine, it is well common, but minor variations in clutch assemblies may be an issue - I'd be checking all the parts numbers on everything to ensure what you have really is what you think it is, you can't assume anything with old vehicles of unknown history, there are other 215mm VW clutches and it may be something isn't the correct part
I can't add any more because I don't do diesel I'm afraid, this is all I know, shame you decided that Andy's input wasn't welcome because he knows far more than I do about these silly diesels; you should make friends with Paul and Andrew they are both running AAZ installations which they did themselves and are on your side of the sea
good luck
Sorry if I came across that I didn't appreciate Andy's input. It was very useful and gave me a starting point. As I said though, when I get the chance this weekend to work on the van I want to have all my bases covered which is why I'm seeking other info too. Thanks a lot for that info there. Lots of things to check and certainly I'll be checking those dowels and the clutch part number. I'm going to get the remains of the old engine on the way down on Friday too so I can do some comparisons. Given that that clutch and flywheel worked fine on the jx, you'd think it would work on the aaz.
Is it plausible that the flywheel bolts could be loose or undertorqued? Just occurred to me as a somewhat far fetched explanation. Maybe a step was missed.
Looking at the bellhousing pics makes me think the damage was done by the bits floating in there after the starter exploded. Now I might be wrong or its a trick of the light but is there new shiny wear on the flywheel teeth? If so it may be that your replacement starter motor is not the right one and thats why you have all those noises .....
As its been suggested before you need to reinstall the gearbox and turn the engine over by hand and listen for noises. You might even want to bump start the van and see what happens.
I didn't think there was wear on the flywheel gear myself. Actually I thought there was surprisingly little considering the fate of the last starter. I did look at the time. The new motor is out of a T25 for sure, and the old one was the one that was starting the JX for god knows how long. Both identical.
Hi
Poxy foxes have woke me up and cant get back to sleep
The 1.9 flywheel is thicker than the 1.6, but as previously written there are no instalation issues i have come across, other than the axccesing of the rear most sump bolts which become partialy obscured by the extra thickness.
The ring gear position is correct.
Remove the clutch cover plate and center plate and check that the reaction springs on the center plate are still ok
There are two types of starter pinion that i have found fitted, and if you use the short gear type you are likely to get horrible noises as described.
The one you need has the long engagement gear. I will take a photo of the one that should be fitted (and the measurment) and email it if you pm me your address, as I am totally useless at uploading.
In principle the short gear is about 14mm and the long one about 24mm.
I had the exact same issue after an aaz install done by a so called professional because I didn't have the facilities at the time.
You do have to relieve some of the alloy casting from the under side of the pinion guide bush on the new starter, as this area can hit the flywheel on instalation, and it is likley to crack the starter gear casing if it is pulled down onto it.
