AAZ injection pump fitment problems! Help Please! With Pics!

[jacko4]

Hi all,
I'm in the midst of converting my 1.6td to AAZ and I've come across this problem that I can't seem to find an solution to.
Last month I went up to Brickwerks to collect some parts for the swap and I asked Simon about the pump that came with the engine. Its the one with all the wires and adjusts the timing with slots in the pulley:- Bosch No 0460 494 413.

Simon reckoned that I should get an earlier one from an AAZ without the wires, so a couple of weeks later I got one off Ebay. This one adjusts by turning the pump body:- Bosch No 0460 494 286

The problem I have is the older one won't fit with the original mounting brackets! I offered it up and the pulley was not in line with the cam pulley by quite a way. So I tried the set up from the 1.6 but the pressed steel panel that goes behind the cam pulley won't 'reach' as the block is obviously longer. The AAZ panel won't fit either with the 1.6 mountings.
These are the 1.6TD mounting brackets and panel

These are the AAZ bracket and panel

My 1.6TD pump:- Bosch No 0460 494 138, looked like it lined up better when offered up due to the spindle not sticking out as much as the older AAZ pump but not without modifying the mounting plate!

I've been stuck on this problem for a week, trawling through the forums trying to find an answer but to no avail!

Is there another part I need?

Hope someone can enlighten me. Cheers in advance, Pete

[futbus]

The original pump can be used but your have to cut the box off where the electrics are. Inside is some electronics, but we chisel these off normally to get to the fuel cut off solenoid, then just bolt on the connector and put the later type pulley back on the front with AAZ bracket, with the adjustment on the pulley rather than turning the pump.

[jacko4]

So my original pump will work OK then with the mods you suggest?
I had seen on the forums that it may be no good as it was an electronic advance or something?

[futbus]

The electronic black plastic box are something to do with an immobiliser and as you dont have the rest of the system, just carefully cut the plastic away to reveal the fuel cut off solenoid which you connect to as normal.

[jacko4]

What about the sleeved wires coming out of the bottom of the pump, and the plug in the middle of the 4 injector unions?
What do they do and can I replace them with anything if I can get rid of them?
Thanks for your help so far

[jacko4]

All sorted now, I just needed a pulley 028 130 111C for it all to line up.
The excellent ray365 off the brickyard sorted me out.

[VWGeoff]

Sorry to have to ask, I`m doing the same, from cs not JX though. Can someone tell me what that wiring is coming out of the top pic of bosch pump. I mean the wires in the middle of the injectors on the pump(two wires not solenoid or i guess not ele cold start either as on other side) Mine runs fine without it connected, but puzzled about the purpose of it?

[VWGeoff]

What are they then please spill the beans? As they don`t seam to serve much purpose?

What about the sleeved wires coming out of the bottom of the pump, and the plug in the middle of the 4 injector unions?
What do they do and can I replace them with anything if I can get rid of them?
Thanks for your help so far

[HarryMann]

All sorted now, I just needed a pulley 028 130 111C for it all to line up.
The excellent ray365 off the brickyard sorted me out.

After all the help and suggestions it might be nice to say a bit more about 'how' exactly you have sorted it... so others can benefit too!

What were the key points to fit and make run OK and why was the new pump better than the original ?

Thanks

[colinthefox]

Well no one else has answered your question.........

What are they then please spill the beans? As they don`t seam to serve much purpose?

What about the sleeved wires coming out of the bottom of the pump, and the plug in the middle of the 4 injector unions?
What do they do and can I replace them with anything if I can get rid of them?
Thanks for your help so far

Those wires are from the injection timing sensor, which senses the rise in pressure when fuel is being injected to any of the cylinders. It sends a signal to the ECU. If you haven't got an ECU, then you don't need to connect the wires.

And on the very bottom of the pump should be the timing solenoid. The ECU receives timing information as described above, processes this info, then sends a signal to the timing solenoid to adjust the timing. If you haven't got an ECU, you can't use this feature. Try puttting 12V across this with the engine running. You should hear the engine note change. [E D I T]Or if that's a vacuum tube going to the bottom of the pump, it may be done with a remote solenoid[/E D I T]

[HarryMann]

The newer VE pumps (like on the 1.9l TD I just bought) have a load dependent timing solenoid. That should give some twiddle room. Basic principle is to advance timing at high loads to give more time to pump in and burn the larger fuel quantity.

That quote related to the last of the TD (IDI) engines...

The eventual move to TDi (Direct Injection) came because significant further reductions of specific fuel consumption could not be realistically achieved with IDI (pre-chamber) diesel engines..

[jacko4]

Harrymann wrote,
After all the help and suggestions it might be nice to say a bit more about 'how' exactly you have sorted it... so others can benefit too!

All sorted now, I just needed a pulley 028 130 111C for it all to line up.
The excellent ray365 off the brickyard sorted me out.

No one on this forum helped in telling me that I needed this pulley for them all to line up!
I decided to go with the Bosch No 0460 494 286 after consulting Baxter again.
Anyway, this weekend I had a first try out, but all I get is a fast,lumpy idle with no throttle response, bought a primer bulb and now I have a faster, lumpier idle and still no throttle.
I checked many times the timing, after hand cranking all the timing tools went back in exactly and the pump timed to 0.98 with a DTI.
I think the pump may be a wrong un as it was a flea bay job!

[HarryMann]

No one on this forum helped in telling me that I needed this pulley for them all to line up!

.. but it looks like they tried to help

Has the throttle lever spindle ever been out of the body do you think ?

Looking on the top there are usually datum marks on the spindle, indicating alignments, which might be a clue

[jacko4]

Yes, you are right, some guidance was offered but it was for the pump that Baxter said was no good! Sorry
Anyway I remember seeing the marks on the spindle when I fitted one of Baxters lever kits. I followed the instructions regarding not letting the bottom lever move on the spindle while fitting the new lever. The whole lever assembly looked like it had never been off before though.
Incidently, this pump was very stiff to turn on the pulley, but I freed it up by moving the pulley to and fro until it had the 4 resistance points, if you know what I mean.
I assume these are normal due to there being 4 fuel unions.
Help much appreciated.

[VWGeoff]

Thanks Buddy No I haven`t an ecu, so I`,ll just cut the wires then. Thanks Geoff

Well no one else has answered your question.........

What are they then please spill the beans? As they don`t seam to serve much purpose?

What about the sleeved wires coming out of the bottom of the pump, and the plug in the middle of the 4 injector unions?
What do they do and can I replace them with anything if I can get rid of them?
Thanks for your help so far

Those wires are from the injection timing sensor, which senses the rise in pressure when fuel is being injected to any of the cylinders. It sends a signal to the ECU. If you haven't got an ECU, then you don't need to connect the wires.

And on the very bottom of the pump should be the timing solenoid. The ECU receives timing information as described above, processes this info, then sends a signal to the timing solenoid to adjust the timing. If you haven't got an ECU, you can't use this feature. Try puttting 12V across this with the engine running. You should hear the engine note change. [E D I T]Or if that's a vacuum tube going to the bottom of the pump, it may be done with a remote solenoid[/E D I T]