starter woes

[jeffdub]

a saga ! van wouldnt start yesterday morning turned the key just a clicking sound as if starter was engaging but wouldnt turn, took the starter off and bench tested it the end was shooting out but not turning , checked everything and decided to buy a new starter motor that cost me £165.00 anyway today went to work started ok came out of work went to start and the same thing just a clicking sound got inside and moved the gear lever from park to neutral whilst keeping the key turned and it fired up ! went to the footy and it fired up no problem im thinking it could be the live wire from the battery to the starter as ive changed the earth from the gearbox to the chassis any ideas ?

[Oldiebut goodie]

Someone with auto knowledge may be able to help but I thought that there was an inhibitor switch somewhere that prevents the starter from being operated whilst in drive - that will be the trouble not the starter.

[California Dreamin]

What he said ^^^^^^ Also..when you bench checked the original starter and found out 'ONLY' the pinion moved.. how did you check it? did you apply power to the large 8mm post at the same time as the small spade connection?
Powering the small spade connection has two functions 1) operates the solenoid to push the pinion forwards and into mesh with the flywheel 2) bridges the main contacts to allow power from the main 8mm post across and into the motor to power the armature. Without power to the 8mm post the motor does not work.

Martin

[jeffdub]

yes i bridged it correctly but the armature moved forward but didnt spin . i fitted the new oone and it started straight away this problem is intermittent when it happens you can hear the starter trying to engage but not spinning does the main live from the battery go straight to the starter cos thats the only thing that i havent replaced ?

[California Dreamin]

yes i bridged it correctly but the armature moved forward but didnt spin . i fitted the new oone and it started straight away this problem is intermittent when it happens you can hear the starter trying to engage but not spinning does the main live from the battery go straight to the starter cos thats the only thing that i havent replaced ?

The clicking noise implies the starter pinion is being thrown forwards by the solenoid and that the main feed is being switched: Therefore...as you have said.....the fault sounds like it is in the main battery feed or earth side.
Small live braid wire on the starter.
Solenoid switching contacts
Earth leads
Positive feeds
Battery terminals

Martin

[jeffdub]

thanks martin the starter is new as is the solenoid i put a new earthstrap from gearbox to chassis so i guess it must be the live from the battery to the starter

[Hacksawbob]

Hi watching with interest as I have a similar issue, but diesel manual. Just wondering, I am not familiar with the petrol automatic starter, but I know on the manual without a supporting bush on the main shaft (as is in the bell housing) you cant test the motor out of the van. Am I right that the auto starter is similar to the diesel?

The petrol has a long run to the battery and I have heard it can appear sound externally but the copper can be corroded internally. Ringo suggested in a previous thread I had with my starting issues that I run a test wire to the main terminal (fused would be a good idea) on the back of the starter and up to the the cab where the voltage can be tested with a meter when the problem occurs.

Anyway mine is the same symptom, intermittent starting, I can hear a click from the rear not no turning of engine but its an intermittent issue. Battery is good, replaced gearbox earth, and ran an extra earth from the back of the starter to the battery, replaced the plastic block in the ignition switch under the key, and I have cut back and remade the spade terminal on good clean copper. My starter is a replacement from GSF fitted last Easter. I can get mine going if if rock the ignition switch just off the start position and back on, it will start on maybe the 3rd or 4th try, but maybe %80 of the time it will start straight off or with just a slight hesitation. I have tested the voltage when this occurs and I am getting 8-9 volts at the back of the starter. The only thing left is the starter surely?.... or just a thought, maybe alignment, just off to check the bolts are done up tight.....

[Oldiebut goodie]

[quote="Hacksawbob"] I can get mine going if if rock the ignition switch just off the start position and back on,/quote]

Surely this indicates that it is the actual ignition switch that is the problem? (maybe in conjunction with something else).

E D I T:
If you are getting more than 1v of voltage drop you have also problems in the wiring between the starter and the battery and/or negative.
This may help.

[California Dreamin]

Anyway mine is the same symptom, intermittent starting, I can hear a click from the rear not no turning of engine but its an intermittent issue. Battery is good, replaced gearbox earth, and ran an extra earth from the back of the starter to the battery, replaced the plastic block in the ignition switch under the key, and I have cut back and remade the spade terminal on good clean copper. My starter is a replacement from GSF fitted last Easter. I can get mine going if if rock the ignition switch just off the start position and back on, it will start on maybe the 3rd or 4th try, but maybe %80 of the time it will start straight off or with just a slight hesitation. I have tested the voltage when this occurs and I am getting 8-9 volts at the back of the starter. The only thing left is the starter surely?.... or just a thought, maybe alignment, just off to check the bolts are done up tight.....

Two observations from your description....as Oldiebut goodie points out, the ignition switches are a regular issue on these and for the sake of £6.00 would be worth changing to elliminate.
and
I'm talking electrics basics here but the Hilliers 'bible' quotes minimum voltage when cranking as 10 volts at the battery..8 - 9 volts is too low.

What is the difference between battery voltage and starter feed voltage whilst cranking....again Hilliers says there shouldn't be more than 0.2 volts VD but I suspect petrol Transporters with their long cable runs on the positive lead exceed this but it shouldn't be that much more.

If you are able to get this fault all the time (one crank every 3-4 attempts) then putting a long (quality) jump lead between battery pos and the main pos solenoid stud should tell you whether it's a main cable fault. (with the jump lead it should start every time...without goes back to 1 in 3/4)

Martin

[jeffdub]

is the main live much of a problem to change ? i assume it runs from the battery under the drivers seat through some sort of grommet then under the van to the starter was going to have a look today but its tipping down

[R0B]

I had a similar problem with my auto a couple of years back.I traced it to these bits,at the base of the gearstick.
https://club8090.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... 9#p7723019" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PS.Should of put a wanted on here for a starter.I could of sold you a perfectly good one for £35.

[California Dreamin]

But jeffdub is saying he hears a clicking noise from the rear....if this was the auto position immobiliser then surely he wouldn't hear anything at all?

Martin

[jeffdub]

yes rob didnt think but i needed the van on the road so i ended paying £165.00 for a new one oh well thats life the more i think about it the more i think its the live from the battery to the starter but that doesnt explain how the starter didnt work when it was bench tested ? maybe it was a coincidence and the starter was knackered anyway

[California Dreamin]

I've never changed a main pos battery feed, I suspect the main issues are routing where other things restrict access and the 'biggy'.. making the ends up to a high enough quality that they pass the 150amps plus without any issues.

My limited experience has been that it is 'the exposed ends' that deterioate and that in most cases (if there is enough cable) cutting back and re-making the ends is sufficient BUT....big but, that depends on how much spare length there is and how far the cable is corroded from the terminal end.

Obviously any replacement cable needs to be at least as heavy (higher capacity prefered) but it is those ends that are critical as even something that looks OK may not be sufficiently tight or have a good enough contact given the high current loads involved.

Martin