Ideal electrical set up???

[ronsrecord]

Big thanks to all the contributors to this thread -



I personally found it one of the more informative topics in a while.

Would be good to hear of people's ideal set-up - Martin - what would be yours? And also other possible different set-ups.

Again - thanks to all! Very informative and practical.

[centro]

So, Do I fork out the cash for:

2 x 6volt Trojans

or

A new leisure battery + Sterling charger?

[v-lux]

So, Do I fork out the cash for:

2 x 6volt Trojans

or

A new leisure battery + Sterling charger?

2x 6v Trojans -£300ish

Or

New leisure battery + 4step digital intelligent charger with built in zero voltage loss split charging diode Sterling unit. - £400ish

You do the math.....

[kevtherev]

my case is rested

V-lux
these telecommsbatteries where would you put them ?
Starter to traction being 1 to 10

Would they need a phase charger to recover them from a weekends use?

[centro]

So, Do I fork out the cash for:

2 x 6volt Trojans

or

A new leisure battery + Sterling charger?

2x 6v Trojans -£300ish

Or

New leisure battery + 4step digital intelligent charger with built in zero voltage loss split charging diode Sterling unit. - £400ish

You do the math.....

What's more cost effective in the long run – running Trojans down to the wire every few weeks/ months then charge them in the shed on a charger

Or

Having a leisure battery being topped up regularly with a Stering alternator to battery charger?

[California Dreamin]

my case is rested

No Kev....You have just worn everybody out.

BTW

What were those batteries called again?

Martin

[centro]

But does Kev actually use Trojans?

[California Dreamin]

Would be good to hear of people's ideal set-up - Martin - what would be yours? And also other possible different set-ups

Your question does prompt an important point.
After all the in depth opinions I do think we have missed one important aspect of the debate:
ronsrecord asks what would my ideal setup be....well it could be two Tojan batteries in series with a multi stage charger, it might be 400 amp of leisures with a sterling conditioner/charger, Perhaps what I am hankering after is every square inch of my Poptop populated with solar panels? or maybe it would be a dual charging setup with two alternators, one for the starter and another for leisure batteries.

However, the reality is I simply don't need any of those.... the way I use my camper has never needed or will ever need any of the above.
I get along just fine with a standard split charge setup (170amp of leisure batteries charged off my standard Westy split charge setup). Sure it could be improved upon but why the hell would I want to throw money at something that works for me?
I have got into the habit of putting my leisure batteries on a pre-camp overnight charge to get them all to 100% and when I go on my travels the mixture of travelling, one night stays, some with some without hookup, keeps the leisures and starter batteries just fine (Westy charger charges both leisure and starter batteries on hookup)

The big point here is: for the vast majority of users (19 out of 20) you really don't need to spend a fortune to get something that will suit your needs.
The danger here is being persuided, talked into, brain washed or convinced that you need some or all of 'that stuff' with it's massive expence, when in reality you really don't.

Martin

[v-lux]

The big point here is: for the vast majority of users (19 out of 20) you really don't need to spend a fortune to get something that will suit your needs.

This is absolutely true, as i said in an earlier post you just have to work out what your maximum consumption is going to be and base your battery size on that. The method you choose for charging that battery is dependent on how quick you want it to charge (over night on a campsite/weeks plugged in at home/whilst your driving) what quality of charge (most batteries never end up with a full charge due to poor charging), and what source you power is coming from (alternator/mains/both).

All this depends on how much you drive your van, what equipment you use in your van and how much power it consumes, what the longest anticipated stay would be without external power, whether you want your batteries to be fully charged overnight, or if you can leave it charging for ages before you'll want to use it again.

I have tried quite a few different set ups before settling on the one i am currently using. I started with a very cheap simple Smartcom voltage sensing relay (VSR) and 200ah of battery but i found that because of long extended stays without hook up i was continuously blowing the 30A fuse due to the battery being drained.
I then move to chunkier cabling and a 70A split charge diode, but due to the nature of split charge diodes i was getting a voltage drop and the 'actual' voltage at the battery meant it was never getting charged properly, slowly over time the batteries failed.
This was when i decided to get the Sterling.

I think a simple robust split charge set up for most people using their vans over a weekend/occasionally could be some decent size cabling (safer and better for voltage) combined with either a 70A-100A standard relay switched via a suitable source, or a 70A-100A VSR. The voltage drop through a relay is very minimal so would provide the necessary voltage at the battery for a decent charge (needs to be around 14v ideally).
The size of this setup can be quite small so doesn't intrude into valuable cupboard space etc and should be relatively cheap and easy to install.

The addition of some kind of mains powered charger to this would be great as it would give the ability to plug the batteries in from time to time to make sure they get a really decent charge once in a while. Whether this is onboard or you remove the batteries to do it, its very worthwhile.

Batteries like to be charged, left on their own without charge they will go wrong, i see examples of it daily.

When it comes to batteries, again, for most people simply having 100-200ah of normal lead acid batteries will be more than adequate, but obviously this depends on what you're running from them. When Westfalia designed their electrical set up i don't think they could have anticipated how many things we would be using whilst camping/driving that consume energy.

As long as you 'roughly' work out your anticipated consumption and base your system upon that you should end up with 'roughly' what you need.

[kevtherev]

But does Kev actually use Trojans?

I have moved from Martins type of set up because my camping style has changed, no hook up sites...and I found it wanting.
So with the van being de rusted and naked inside, the old leisure is gone and the cabling and wiring is being renewed ready to fit The Trojans.

[v-lux]

these telecommsbatteries where would you put them ?

Ive got three of them behind my drivers seat. Built a box for them to live in and my fridge sits on top of there. They vary in size between manufacturers, but generally they are a similar shape, longer and thinner than a car battery. Roughly H-170mm W-120 L-500mm

Ive got a pic somewhere...i'll dig it out.

[kevtherev]

Where would you put the telecomms batteries on the scale of battery types... starter being 1 leisure being 5 and traction being 10 (in my view )

[v-lux]

They are a sealed lead acid battery, so probably the closest pigeon hole you can put them in would be a leisure i guess. They're certainly not a cranking (starter) battery. They are designed to give a steady output for as long as they can.

On another note, whilst talking about traction batteries. If you were particularly inclined to do so you could build your own traction battery. Get a load of single cells and link them all up. Ie 6x single cell lead acid or 8x single cell nicad. That'd basically give you a 12v traction.

[v-lux]

In a nutshell, the traction vs other battery types is all about discharge & recharge.

If you expect to be very regularly and deeply discharging a battery, then traction is a good idea (think golf carts/forklifts)

If you're going to be discharging less regularly and not completely, then traction is less necessary.

Whichever type, once discharged will need charging 'properly' to maintain the capacity of the battery.

This is why having a way of monitoring the discharge level is so important, any battery run 100% flat won't last long.

[trentjim]

So with the van being de rusted and naked inside, the old leisure is gone and the cabling and wiring is being renewed ready to fit The Trojans.

and this illustrates another important consideraton, somebody looking at a blank canvas is going to have very different ideas about ideal than somebody who already has a system which works for them...
i mean in my case everything comes back to the fridge...

Now remember that
1 - i'll rarely be near a hookup.
2 - That i want to avoid the hassle of charging from the home supply as much as possible.
3 - I like the idea of a van that takes care of itself

three way absorbtion fridge will be circa £250 - not exactly much choice style wise
4.5kg of gas is what, £16, and the consumption of an absorbtion fridge is 12g gas per hour ( the dometic rge2000 is 24 g per hour) so 1kg of gas lasts 83 hours & the bottle will do 15 days... making the ballpark running cost of the fridge £1 per day

an "A" efficiency rated 240v compressor beer/minibar fridge - loads of choice in the £50-150 price range - consumes 16w (LEC r5009 - £104))
add £50 for a decent inverter and allow 5w for its resting consumption AND add 10% for efficiency loss, and the fridge/inverter combo costs 23w per hour. or 1.91 Ah or 46Ah per day

gs55 thin film 55w solar panels are £55 ea - allow -10% (seconds) and the pairs 100w array should produce 6-700 watt hours, or 54Ah per day in summer - but only 6.7 Ah per day in winter.

£65 gets me a EPIPDB-COM 10A dual battery solar charge controller with remote display (to monitor condition of each battery & allow setting and changing of charge priority)
the capacity of the leisure batteries is a seperate consideration for now, i'll return to that in a bit

now we have defined the variables lets do the sums

gas fridge
£250 + £1 per day

solar fridge
£104 + £50 + £110 + £65 = £329 + 0 per day
so just looking at the fridge the payback period is about 80 days use... not bad on its own.
now lets look at the credit/deficit for this setup across the seasons

summer use
Fridge consumes 20% more than average so 55 Ah
panel produces - 54Ah, allow a bit for lighting and waterpump, with a tiny bit of input from the alternator and the bus can go all summer in "tickover mode" without needing any significant input

autumn use
fridge consumes 44 Ah
panel produces 35Ah - system runs at approx 12 Ah deficit - so can stand for about a week, 2 at a push before wanting power input (assuming 200 Ah of leisure battery) - will recharge itself in about 2 or 3 days (unused with electrics off & allowing a small contribution form the alternator

Winter use
fridge turned off
panel produces 6.7 Ah - enough for lights, pump and a phone charger (indefinate survival mode)

in winter weekender mode my 100 Ah usable battery capacity should let me run the fridge and a diesel heater for a couple of nights
luxury capacity
if i have 200 Ah of leisure battery lets say i have 100 Ah of usable energy - in Winter i can forget about using this for anything except essentials & maybe a couple of charges to the laptop
In summer it would buy me about 25 hours of laptop charging, or about 6 hours of a playstation3 & TV scenario.
in Autumn I could knock those times back by a third/half


so as a simple camper the above system looks like it does the job pretty well.
It should be capable of recharging itself fully between frequent summer use and weekend Autum use.
it will probably take 2 weeks to recover fully from a weekend in winter unless driven a bit or plugged in.

If I want a "luxury" camper capable of more high enery use especially in winter then I need to add an extra panel, another battery and a Stirling charger. Which would substantially increase the cost. This is the decision that I am wrestling with at the moment. What is the Diesel consumption Per hour for a van idling with a 50 amp load on the alternator? - need this to work out solar payback time against this power source.