Water jacket seal

[salgarfi]

Dear All,

My 2.1ltr 1990 waterbox engine is having one of its water jacket seals replaced. The other one was done back in March. Unfortunately, being based in mid Wales, I've had problems finding a good mechanic, but I was recommended to go to a chap not that far from me who is supposed to have had loads of experience with VW vans, and older ones at that. Well, he decided to do the job, and it appears that, so far, he's partially removed the piston head (with the engine in situ) and removed the dodgy rubber seal. He plans to put the new seal in place by stretching it over the piston head and then seating it in. However, he's told me that he's doing it this way, because when he tries to pull off the piston head, the piston liners are stuck to it, so if he removes the head fully, the pistons would come out. He obviously wants to keep the pistons in place (he claims that he doesn't have the kit for placing the pistons back into their liners - and he agreed to do this work?!). But my fear is that when he puts the piston head back into place, the seals/gaskets(?) between the piston liners and the engine block will not have been replaced, and they could leak in the future, with water going into the crankcase. He's ordered the parts and he's going to put everything back together, and pressure test the engine, but I'm worried s**tless about the piston liner seals failing in the near future. Any opinions???

What cheeses me off about this mechanic is that I haven't gone to him because I've wanted to save money - I've actually gone to him because he's been recommended. I hope I'm not going to end up with a bodged job??!!

sal

[Sh!tbucket]

I've just done one on my 1.9 DG and although I wouldn't do it with the engine situ, some would.

If the barrels come out (because they are stuck to the cylinder head), then you should replace the cylinder liner base seals. There is also a pair of liner seals at the top, as well as two metal head gaskets as well as the water jacket seal. All these should be replaced together. All these come in a kit of gaskets for about £80 which includes water pump seals, manifold gaskets and exhaust gaskets for one side complete. Brickwerks, Just Kampers and VW Heritage et al, all sell them, mine was a Victor Reinz kit. In this kit is also some sealant for the water jackets seal (as you head will almost certainly have some minor pitting) and some yellow head nut sealant. All of this stuff is required to do the job properly.

I'd be a bit worried about this guy's abilities to do this job from what you say, he should certainly have pulled the liners from the head and shouldn't need to stretch the waterjacket seal over the head (if that's what I understand he's doing?)

You don't really need any specialist garage gear either, I did mine at home, with basic tools, a torque wrench and if the liners come off the pistons a piston ring compressor.

Reading what you've said again, he must've at least disturbed the cylinder liner base seals, they've gotta be replaced to do a good job after that. You're risking coolant getting into the crankcase.
I wouldn't just replace the water jacket seal on it's own.

That's my thoughts, but I'm not a qualified mechanic.

Hope this helps you.

Dan.

[salgarfi]

You're saying just what I thought might be the case. I'm in a quandary here. My engine's partly apart in a garage and I just can't drive it away to someone else. I don't know if i should try to persuade him to take off the piston head and liners and do the right thing, or just let him do what he thinks he can do, cut my losses, and find another garage.

I can kick myself!

[Sh!tbucket]

If not alot more work to just do the job right.

People on this forum have managed to fit the liner base seal without taking the liners from the pistons. But the top end stuff, should just be changed, it's just good practise. He's not saving himself any work as I see it. The kit of gaskets is economical enough, I think the water jacket seal is about £45 on it's own, for another £15 to £20 you get the lot.

Even if it runs, which I suppose is the minimum it must do when you get it back, how reliable will it be? If this repair fails will you have to fund his poor knowledge for him to have to redo the lot properly?

Then there's the chance he could snap a head stud, which can happen.

Don't want to worry you unnecessarily, but that's how I see it. Mind you, I'm not very trusting of mechanics full stop! Do what I can myself if it can be helped. I always manage to pull a cowboy from the yellow pages for anything I set out to do!

Dan.

[Sh!tbucket]

BTW, I've just had a weeks holiday in Ceredigion. Beautiful part of the world, loved it. You're very lucky to live around there.

[mm289]

Hi,

If you want more back ground info on this subject read here https://club8090.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=87097

It is common for the liners to stick to the head. As mentioned above there are 3 seals on the liner, good practice replaces them but not everyone does, again the post and pictures above will explain all this.

I have never heard of anyone being able to stretch the water jacket seal enough for it to slip over the head - it is an innovative thought, but given how many people do this repair (pro and amateur) I would have thought if it were possible it would have been thought of by now. My guess is the rubber won't stretch enough for this to occur and will snap.

If this is the case your mechanic will have no choice but to pull the head of and if he cant seperate the liners in situ then he will have to do so on a bench and then pop the pistons out to re-assemble (or find a way to slip the liners over the piston rings in situ which is fiddly and risky).

On no account (and worth checking) can he cut the rubber seal to fit it and think it can be glued/sealed in situ (which would be another "innovative" approach), the join on the seal wouldn't last with the heat/wet/pressure cycles it has to endure IMHO.

Lots of info on this repair in the forum and wiki, so get yourself upto speed and then at least you can have a friendly educated conversation with your man. BTW how much are you paying - if its only a couple of hundred its dirt cheap and you take your chance, if its £400+ get him to do it properly

MM

[salgarfi]

You're all right and I'm pissed off with myself that I got myself into this situation. It's actually your linked thread, mm28, that's given me the knowledge to question what he's doing. Concerning cost, he's been reluctant to give me a quote because of the potential of things that could go wrong, but I went into this knowing how much the other side of the engine cost so I was initially not too perturbed. I was also not too bothered by the fact that he's a small scale operation since so many of the people on the forum have done this repair. I've also dealt with small scale mechanics in the past and they've been alright. Unfortunately they're all retired now.

And Sh!tbucket, my wife has just forced me to sit on our hillside, take in the view, and have a beer to calm me down. Yes, Ceredigion is a lovely place and we live close to the edge of the Cambrian mountains, not far from Devil's Bridge and Cwmystwyth. In fact, we have trouble thinking of places we can go with 'Honoria', since our local scenery is so stunning. I guess it's only Scotland or the continent!

Sal

[kevtherev]

Don't be pissed
You're assuming the worst,
and if it comes to the worst, you can argue the toss with him armed with knowledge from here.

Take it on the chin and move on, it's a steep curve when you buy on old van, some bail out after a year but you seem the sort of chap who's willing to learn

God has already smiled on you... you live in his garden.

chin up

[salgarfi]

Don't be pissed
You're assuming the worst,
and if it comes to the worst, you can argue the toss with him armed with knowledge from here.

Take it on the chin and move on, it's a steep curve when you buy on old van, some bail out after a year but you seem the sort of chap who's willing to learn

God has already smiled on you... you live in his garden.

chin up

Bless you and Amen!!

Sal

[Sh!tbucket]

And Sh!tbucket, my wife has just forced me to sit on our hillside, take in the view, and have a beer to calm me down. Yes, Ceredigion is a lovely place and we live close to the edge of the Cambrian mountains, not far from Devil's Bridge and Cwmystwyth. In fact, we have trouble thinking of places we can go with 'Honoria', since our local scenery is so stunning. I guess it's only Scotland or the continent!

Sal

Come to Yorkshire, North Yorkshire and the Dales are nice. Some nice parts of Derbyshire too. I like the Lakes.

[salgarfi]

Come to Yorkshire, North Yorkshire and the Dales are nice. Some nice parts of Derbyshire too. I like the Lakes.[/quote]

You're right, I didn't mean to leave those parts out of the country!!

Sal

[salgarfi]

Well All...,

The deeds been done! My mechanic obviously wanted to do everything in situ, and he was adamant about not wanting to remove the piston liners. I thought I'd have a word about this with BulliBarn (who did the other side of my engine) and they said this wasn't the end of the world. If they can do it, they'll just remove the piston head with the liners stuck to it by only about 10mm, and then gingerly tap away at the lugs on the piston liners, with a screw driver, until they loosen, and then go on from there (and if I understood the bloke correctly, even leaving the liners in place afterwards). By leaving the engine in situ, my chap kept the piston liners stuck to the head, moved the piston head and liners out a bit, and in the gap, he actually positioned the water jacket seal as he said he would/could, by stretching it over the piston head. As you say MM, this is an innovation - the liner can obviously stretch. Of course, this repair is nothing like your beautiful rebuild, but the bill didn't break my piggy bank so I'm willing to chance what's been done. As you say Kev, I shouldn't assume the worst.

Anyway, (and I digress) my second car, way back in my Uni days in the States was a beetle, and I was always impressed with the indestructibility of that little baby. Also, I'm impressed by the essential simplicity of the mechanics on these vans. So, if I couple these two simple (or simpleton's) thoughts with my decades of work in the Middle East where I've seen cars repaired and kept on the road in the most imaginative ways (also forced to be driven in 'extreme' circumstances), I'm willing to hope that my mechanic (who does seem to know his way around VW vans) might have done what he did out of knowledge and not obstinance. I shall keep my eye out for mayonaise in my crankcase oil, and bubbles in my expansion tank, and move on. In fact, I've got a cross country trip coming up within two weeks, so I hope Honoria will bear up!!

Thanks for all your comments, opinions and support!

Sal

[mm289]

sounds like a result, as you seem to do a fair bot of mileage in the van, you will have to keep us upto date with how the water jacket seal holds up.

I might go and find an old seal in the workshop and try this to see how easily it slips over a head.........

MM

[salgarfi]

I think, he must have put the seal over the side of the cylinder head in the first instance, and then, since it would have been up against the cylinder liner (since the block and piston head were separated slightly), it would have only needed a little bit of stretching to get over the rest of the head. I've had a good look over the seal and it seems to be in good condition.

I'll let you all know if I end up with mud on my face due to further leaking!

Sal