Type one engine instead of CT?

[fall-apart-dave]

Has anyone ever put a type one engone into a T25 in place of a CT?

I have found a few sites that discuss the details, and am confident that the cooling system can be transfererred if I use external oil cooling. The engine I have in mind is a rather special 2.1 litre type one based lump, very high spec though, and is being offered at a very very good price.

I am just wondering about the cooling system and how easy it is to transfer, since the engine I am looking at currently has standard type one tinwear.

Also, has anyone any experience of applying type one tinwear to a CT engine?

The idea is I take his high spec engine off him, and he takes my CT engine. The car has been for sale for a long time, but nothing is selling these days, and so this move means I get an excellent proven engine at a very good price, he gets a good chunk of the cash he is after for the car and has a smaller engine to bring the price of the car down dramatically and make it more appealing.

So, has anyone had first hand experience of it? As I said, I've found lots of info and am confident it can be done, but would really like to chat to someone who has done it or seen it done.


Thanks in advance, chaps.

[riffboy]

Sounds interesting!

Wouldnt you lose the floor at the back of the van though, with having the type one fan sticking up? Also what gearbox are you thinking of putting on it? What cams are on the type 1 lump? If its anything like my old one there wasnt much low down grunt so shifting a t25's weight may be a struggle? All revvy and no low end. Interesting to see what happnes though

[CovKid]

I did it in the early 90s on a 2ltr Aircooled - mostly cos price of parts on 2ltr annoyed me so much.

However, there are a few things you have to sort. You have to get ally sheet and make up new tinware surround. Its best suited to a crewcab or you'll have to raise decklid area. You also need (If i remember rightly) the engine carrier from the early T25 1600 lump. Flywheel - can't remember if I swapped that - think I did. Also throttle cable will need to be longest they make then you cut down to suit. May need an adapter (custom bug places do them) if your bug engine lacks the bolt holes under oil pump to bolt engine carrier to.

One I built was a bored up type1 lump with chromoly pushrods, swivel adjusters and a cam more suited to hill climbing (mild). That bugger flew I can tell you - way quicker than my present 1.9DG and parts were cheaper in terms of servicing. Not sure if bellhousing changed when the WBX came in but certainly before that it was identical to type1&2 bellhousing. I remember going to Franks Bus Parts at Walton and the pair of us sitting them side by side to compare. Frank, at that time, was making a SIX-Wheeler T2 - heck it was long.

So yes you can fit a bug engine in, but a pain in the ass in a van or camper unless you can live with higher decklid or make some kind of box to raise it. Easy in a crewcab tho To my knowledge I was the first person ever to do it. I remember doing a lot of maths to work out the best combination of engine bits to get the grunt in it.

Both Frank and John Austin will remember my bug powered double crew. Great idea that worked well. Silliest solution I ever saw was a 1200 engine in a type 2. Bloke got desperate and was only engine he could find. Took AGES to get speed up.

Footnote: It might be possible to fit the type 1 without raising decklid but you'll have to devise and make a replacement for fan housing that lays flat. Not sure I'd want to go that far but should be possible...

[lloydy]

So out of interest, would a type 3 engine be better?

[CovKid]

In theory but then you may be back to the problem of parts. Thats why I never went that route. Nothing worse than being locked into "We might be able to get that part in but not seen one for years and our suppliers think they may be obsolete" etc etc.

It worked for me - at the time. That was before the Subaru came on the scene. Think I'd go that route in a camper now although if I had a crewcab I might just fit the bug lump - which I still have.

[fall-apart-dave]

The engine is already running external oil cooling and full flow, so no issue of the oil cooler inside the tinwear, I can put the oil cooler wherever I like. The main quastion for me is the tinwear transferable?

The engine is an absolute stonker, about £3-£4k worth. Not worried about the bellhouse, clutch etc. Flywheel is the same diameter, only with a central bolt rather than 5 nuts obviously. It has a Kennedy pressure plate and puck disc (it eats stock clutches in about a month), good high spec, and perfect for what I want.

I don't want to change the engine lid height, forgot about the support bar though, will have to fabricate something for that most likely.

Rob, did you ever try using the pancake cooling on a type one engine?

[CovKid]

Early T25s were 1.6 and 2.0 and the 1.6 engine carrier can be used. I found I had to make new tinware between engine and the edges of engine bay, using a T2 tinware seal and sheet aluminium, cut and bolted together at appropriate places. Oil cooler can always be moved (mine had engine tapped for that) but the problem to address is cooling the engine generally if fan housing has to go. On the type1 the alternator/generator drives the fan, blown through the barrels. If you can solve that by converting to the suitcase cooling (and do a good job of it) or maybe use a ducted fan driven in some other way and sealed well, then you're home and dry but its a right jigsaw puzzle involving some serious head-scratching along the way.

I just did a straight swap to a type1 as the crewcab gave all the head clearance I needed so most stuff lines up ok with a few mods but actually flattening down the type1 profile to fit a regular T25 will definitely require some creative thinking. Can be done for sure but it seems a lot of work and I have a feeling it might just be simpler and more worthwhile to convert it to take a regular WBX, diesel, or even a scooby unless its a really special modified type1 engine.

[billy739]

personally i think the t25 is too heavy for such a small engine.

yes it will propell it but its a lot of load for a small engine and you prob wont benifit from all the mods to the engine.

[fall-apart-dave]

T25 might be heavy, but the engine I am looking at is higher spec'd and belting out lots more torque than the 2 litre type 4 motor used in early T25's and a truckload better than the 1600 lump in there now.

It's not going to be easier converting to WBX, since then I have a water system to plumb in too. The spec of the engine is special, not a scrap of metal on it is stock type 1, I literally mean that. Heads, barrels, pistons, conrods, crank, cam, rockers, oil pump, fuel pump, conrods, carbs, case, clutch, the whole shebang is spec'd, blueprinted, balanced, it's a well sorted lump and worth using. Parts are cheaper and more readily available than type 4 parts, still means it's air cooled, and a LOT less work than coverting to water pumper, and cheaper than converting to Scooby (for me it's cheaper anyway!) when you take into account adapter plates, mounts etc.

So, looks like I just need some sheet steel and a bit of nouse then? I still ahven't found a difinitive answer to my initial question though. Will the CT tinwear, the CT being very similar to the type one engine, in that most parts are exchangable (yes I know there is a difference between barrels and heads on either engine, but swapped together they too are exchangable) and very few differences between the engines, fit type one? Apart from the ribs on the case, are there any other differences?

[billy739]

what power band does the motor have

does it mean you need to be screaming the motor to use its power?

ie 4000+rpm?

[fall-apart-dave]

Nah, stops pulling at about 5k, pulls hard from about 1000.

[fall-apart-dave]

Any other help out there?

[CovKid]

Your best bet would be to go hunt out a VW spares graveyard and do some comparing. Had to do that in my case. Ideally you want a WBX lump and type1 lump side by side and look at the differences which whilst subtle will be various. I may be the nearest and certainly the first to try this kind of conversion but you have a lot to suss out in going as far as you're going and you'll need to start with a couple of blocks and spot the differences for starters. Can't see you'll do it any other way fella. Its sure possible but by no means easy and you have to weigh that up against fitting a more modern and dare I say it, efficient modern engine of which there are many.

My type1 was also special, from line bored upwards but that was far easier in a crewcab. If I was doing it today, on a camper, I don't think I'd go that route to be honest but if you're determined, go compare blocks and do some measurements as well as sums - it my not stack up in the end with all the time and effort involved, particularly when a scooby might be a better bet these days. A sooped up bug engine will pull for sure (can vouch for that) but given the room you'll have and adaptation needed, it would make more sense to embark on something much easier to fit and more matched.

As a footnote, I used to haul logs in mine no prob (full load at that) but it was HEAVY on fuel even unloaded. Thats another side to this that you'll struggle to guess at and it could dampen your enthusiasm very quickly... It was another project I tackled that everyone said couldn't be done and it was fun to drive but I honestly think things have moved on in terms of technology and that engine would be much happier pushing something a whole lot lighter, tuned or not. If you just want the challenge then fine but its not a perfect solution given the wealth of options now. The cam won't match for starters. I had to do a lot of research to get the right one for that application and consult with a guy who was a professional track racer and we did so many calculations in the process involving tougher and non-standard length pushrods as well as valve geometry measurements that drove me nuts. A sporty bug engine isn't designed for getting a heavy object like a T25 moving. Theres a fair bit of science behind it all and if it wasn't built from the bottom up to do the job demanded of it, its akin to putting a ferrari engine in a steam roller. Power is one thing but it needs to be in the right place. Weight forms a big part of that equation so its not just the plumbing .

[billy739]

double post

[billy739]

personally the engine just isant tough enogh for a longterm fit

we would all be fitting motorbike engines it this were the case!