Hookup/RCD

[1664]

Trust you to post again while I was composing my reply.... I've still put up my original reply but added the bits in blue in light of your last post.


Slightly misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were suggesting getting rid of the Incoming RCD and having final circuits running out to RCD sockets.
Anyway, the campervan electrics are viewed as an installation in it's own right and a main switch disconnector that disconnects all live conductors is required (Reg 721.537.2.1.1) and RCD protection is also required to interrupt all live conductors (Reg 721.411.1). There is also the 'breaking capacity' to consider in order for the device to cope with the prospective short circuit current. A double pole switchable RCD will fulfill all these requirements.Devices must be suitable for the job they are to perform and I very much doubt a socket would fulfill this requirement. Overcurrent protection is also required to disconnect all live conductors (Reg 721.43.1). I suppose you could argue (at a stretch) that unplugging the down stream sockets satisfys the isolation requirement but just switching the socket off doesn't although that link suggests those sockets do - but I would check that that is exactly what they mean. and the overcurrent protection (the fuse in the plug) only disconnects the phase conductor, not the neutral (the neutral conductor is considered a 'live' conductor by the regulations). I'm not sure if the RCD portion of an RCD socket interrupts both live conductors or not as I've never looked into that, but if I were a betting man I'd plump for 'not' and I'd check that the RCD socket in the link does both live conductors too. Although your idea would work from a practical point of view, and even if it did satisfy the regs it would not be considered 'good practice'.

But lets put all this into perspective; these Regs came into force in 2008, and the previous regs in1992. Prior to that the regs didn't even mention caravans or motorhomes. My camper doesn't comply with the regs as the electrics were installed in 1990 and since all these vans were converted between 1979 and 1991 it's not unreasonable to assume none of them will. However, any new installations must comply with the latest regs.

[1664]

and another thought springs to mind; even if the socket has DP switching, in order to totally isolate your installation you would need to switch two switches if you used a twin socket so wouldn't qualify as a 'main disconnector' either..... Pulling two plugs out still leaves you with a energised socket in the van.

[andisnewsyncro]

This all makes for interesting reading. I'm assuming the regs relate to a "permanent" install? Is there anything to stop people using one of those 3way trailing leads with in built rcd s that they sell at places like Argos for tents, if it's just routed out through the van, and not need to actually "install" anything ? And then you could plug in a fitted fridge and charger? Quite similar to AngeloEvs' plan, but not permanently fixed ? And dare I mention the Earth "do you don't you" question?

It's all academic as far as I'm concerned really; my install seems good. All renewed & certificated in Dec 2007 and has had a lot of use, so I'm not changing anything, but just interested.

[AngeloEvs]

and another thought springs to mind; even if the socket has DP switching, in order to totally isolate your installation you would need to switch two switches if you used a twin socket so wouldn't qualify as a 'main disconnector' either..... Pulling two plugs out still leaves you with a energised socket in the van.

Van chassis should be earthed Andisnewsyncro.


Bren....the one I have just purchased has two 13A outlets each with its own switch (as per most houshold types), these are sourced via the internal RCD which is a double pole type so both live conductors will be isolated in the event of a fault (and complies witht the new regs regards transient switch off time and earth leakeage current). The only thing I don't have is overcurrent limit but thats what the purpose of the fuses are anyway. What I do have are the 'test' function and the 'manual isolation' buttons. LIke you say, our campers are pre regs anyway so as long as I am satisfied that the installation and quality of the installation is fit for purpose I will go ahead........but I know you will be sceptical..... ....next time we meet at a show we can discuss it over a beer or two....and if there is hook-up (which I have if available cuz I'm an old spoilt git!) ....I will plug the electric kettle in.......... .

[1664]

Look lads, as far as I'm concerned you can install two bits of wet string with a neon flashing golden statue of the 'fallen Madonna with the bog boobies' connected to it - no skin off my nose. The regs are the regs. They didn't publish them as a 'hint' or as a challenge entitled 'Get of that one then'. OK, they are not statutory and it's not illegal to ignore them. HOWEVER, should an accident occur as a result of your ignoring them and injury result you WILL be prosecuted. Incidentally, the Electricity at Work Regulations and Health and Safety Act are the only instances where in a court of law you have to prove your innocence rather than them prove your guilt. Let's face it; if some pratt on the telly who says "I was installing an alarm and was given the wrong type of ladder" can make £7,500 just for being stupid enough to use it in the first place, then what chance you got?

Andy, there is no reason why an extension lead designed for tents can't be used in a camper. The installation in a camper is designed for convenience, ease of use and practicality rather than having an extension lead falling in your washing up. As for the bonding issue, the current regs say to do it. The previous regs said not necessary but was a bit vague to be honest. Prior to that the general regs applied and it was up to the installer to make the decision. My van isn't and I see no reason to change that; however, should I 'rewire' my van I would be obliged to.

The fact remains that the RCD socket idea, although it would work, does not satisfy the requirements of the regs. The breaking capacity has not been addressed; the BS standard of the socket RCD is not correct: there is still only overcurrent protection in the phase conductor; there is no main disconnector; with everything turned off you still have an energised and fully operational accessory (socket) in the van. Any work you carry out in your van now should conform to the regulations that apply now.

I must also say that I fail to see the point of ripping out a perfectly good installation and installing an inferior one just to gain less than a square foot of space

Coffee, white, one sugar please. Oh, and leave the spoon in the cup please

[AngeloEvs]

....lets agree to disagree Bren but just one question, why do you say the RCD doesn't satisfy the current regs and BS standard when clearly the tech info states it does? If the regs specifically state a dual Pole MCB in addition to the RCD then I will get the miniature ones now available and locate it next to the socket. At least I can free up that space and get the spare gass bottle or 'bog' in it once the existing one has been removed. I like that '''leave the spoon in the cup"....

[trebormint]

However you interpret the regs & whatever you decide to do, remember to perform the required tests prior to, & after energising. For example, continuity of circuit protective conductors, r1+r2, polarity, insulation resistance, earth loop impedance, prospective fault current, volt drop, phase sequence, tripping times of the RCD etc. Oh, & a completed certificate.
There, that should put most DIY'ers off.

[AngeloEvs]

.....in my experience it won't have any impact whatsoever in these sort of applications.......many DIY'ers will continue to add electrical equipment, change sockets and wire their caravans, motorhomes simply because they do not know, choose to ignore or satisfied with what they have done. You would have to make a pigs ear of the installation to fail those tests or lack the appropriate skills and knowledge in choice and selection of the materials/components (which is the whole purpose of them). Some DIY work is unnacceptable but for legislative bodies to rank all DIY as lacking profficiency smacks of a 'nanny state' whereby the day will come when we will not be able to change the brake linings on our cars but ok to top up the rad with water......

[eddie.eagles]

hmmm, this has got interesting since my last post!

I bought a garage consumer unit, RCD and 2 switchy thingies, one 6A one 16A so need to swap the 6A for something bigger as I only run sockets not lights (or maybe i should put a 240v light in!)

Finally got everything back in about half hour ago and feel much better that I now have a modern RCD and switches rather than a 29 year old fuse!

[1664]

I bought a garage consumer unit, RCD and 2 switchy thingies, one 6A one 16A so need to swap the 6A for something bigger as I only run sockets not lights (or maybe i should put a 240v light in!)

Mine has a 6A and 10A 'switchy thingy' The 6A one supplies a single socket specifically for the fridge, the 10A supplies a single socket located next to the Zig Unit. To be honest, I very rarely use hook up as I can't be @rsed to get the lead out and a camper should operate perfectly well without it for a weekend at least. The last time I did was the New Year Llangollen meet but it was 'effin' freezin' and the van was pretty much stationary for a week or so.

....lets agree to disagree Bren but just one question, why do you say the RCD doesn't satisfy the current regs and BS standard when clearly the tech info states it does? If the regs specifically state a dual Pole MCB in addition to the RCD then I will get the miniature ones now available and locate it next to the socket. At least I can free up that space and get the spare gass bottle or 'bog' in it once the existing one has been removed. I like that '''leave the spoon in the cup"....

The BS is the BS for a socket, not an incoming device - and not all RCD's have the same performance criteria. Email the manufacturer and ask if it will be suitable for the purpose you intend - my money's on "no". Frankly, if you install a double pole mcb you won't save any space anyway as it's pretty much the same size as the RCD; and it will be installed before the RCD protection the socket will provide so you fall on your face again as far as the regs are concerned. Frankly I fail to see why you're even bothering - your current installation looks fine and you'll only gain enough space for an extra can of baked beans.....

Like I said, I'm not bothered I'm just lookin at the regs.......

[Jop]

Which RCD did you buy? I've got a sparky mate who's gonna help me fit mine.

[eddie.eagles]

I bought it from screwfix. As I am technically minded it was a blue and red cardboard box!! I know nothing about regs, nor electrics to be honest but what the hell.......

[AngeloEvs]

The 17th ed regs clearly state the specification of all RCD's for all applications, the specification of the product states it complies with them and the tech spec falls well below the minimum requirements. Its an argument that could go on and on but since all EU campsites are also bound by the European Regulations (which the IEE 17th ed regs were revised to match incidentally) and all EHU points must also have a MCB, overcurrent protection and RCD you could you wire up your van as right pigs ear and still be protected. There is absolutely no difference between my proposed installation and that of anyone elses using a discreet combi RCD/MCB....other than its smaller.............can't trip me up that easily! The chances are that the ones currently fitted to most of the original VW campers do not meet this spec, at least mine does. Does it mean that they offer less protection and that everyone should start replacing them? Not a jot, the current needed to to cause fatilty is a minute fraction of the current any RCD (new or old) that it actually trips out at. What most people want is a safety device that isolates their supply in the event of a faulty appliance or accidental contact with a live supply and usually have enough commonsense not to start dismantling their sockets and supply system while it is connected to the EHU because they think the problem is in the installation.

The Circular saws in our workshops (4 Years old and not a single finger or limb dismembered) were inspected under the new EU H&S regs......they failed and had to be put out of use. Why?....because the new regs state that the blade must come to rest within 10 seconds. Ours stopped in 10.8 seconds.......it takes a fraction of that to dismember an arm...........and cost 750 pounds per machine to have the braking system upgraded....its "Balls"!

[trebormint]

You're right about the campsites supply to your van will offer satisfactory protection however your van is wired. Assuming the camp site has a safe installation which is regulary inspected & tested.
With any DIY the same rules apply - get well informed before tackling the job.

[trebormint]

Oh, if max Zs (1667 ohms max. earth path resistance) x 30ma is equal or less than 50v then you are protected from getting a nasty shock.