front wheel camber ajustment

[Simon Baxter]

Also worth remembering is that T3 syncro's need no encouragement to mince the lower arm inner bush at the front edge against the mountings.
Raising a van will only increase the problem as the castor is increased, hence why I think it's another good reason to set the castor and have as little as you can get away with.

[v-lux]

Would this possibly be an argument for using Poly bushes for the lower arm inner bush on a syncro then?

I know there's mixed opinions about poly bushes on a syncro (harsher ride, vibration etc). But would they last longer than a rubber one on a lifted van perhaps?

[Simon Baxter]

Harsh ride is hearsay.
People going on about "Washboard roads" something that we don't have here, Africa maybe, Dorset, er, no.
Other thing is people may be refering to the poly bushes Gordon Craig had in SA, they are rock hard, Powerflex not so.
I personally don't really think that you can tell much different when you drive them, yes they feel a bit tigher, but harsh is not a word I would use at all, but they are a piece of p!ss to change, done with the arm in situ rather than having to take the arm off and press them in and out, and the material is tougher.
I will accept critisism about them from people who have actually used them, rather than people who read the syncro list or another forum.
The poly bushes do a better job of keeping the arms where they should be.

[jed the spread]

One thing i always wondered about if using "uprated springs" on a lighter van to improve hight is the compression of them. Am i right in thinking if you hit some uneven ground like this for instance (standard springs with £60 spacers from Syncroservices )



that all the wheels are on the ground there for better off roading ability and grip than say this (ok the ground is abit rougher but you get the idea) With stiff springs causing wheels to lift in the air,



If so then arnt you making a van less capable in these conditions by "uprateing",the springs with stiffer ones? that are, lets be honest standard green laneing conditions.

[syncropaddy]

Jed, I believe you to be correct in what you suppose.

I have a standard weight van and I went the uprated spring route as part of a series of mods. On the road the van bounced all over the place and I reverted back to standard springs on spacers to give me my 2" lift that I wanted. When off road, the van has better articulation with the standard springs than with the stiffer ones I had previously fitted and was a whole lot more comfortable and manageable. The idea of having all four wheels on the ground when off roading is the way to go without a doubt but as we all know, is not possible all the time in a Syncro. Stiffening it up unnecessarily makes things worse.

But that is with a standard van that is not weighed down by a load of stuff

If you have a heavy van ie a fully kitted out camper (or even a van full of plaster's equipment), a set of stiffer springs could be the way to go. I still think, though, that with a heavyish van, a set of new standard springs with spacers is the answer for on and off road

Unless, of course, your name is Russell and your camper weighs 3 tonnes and has wheels off a tractor .........

[Simon Baxter]

This is whay I'm doing the coil overs to work with standard springs, same spring rate but you can stiffen the dampers for on road, and back them off for offroad.
This is also why I raised an eyebrow when I was looking into getting some longer springs made and people wanted them stiffer also, which I though maybe counter productive.
I think adjustable height and damping at the front end, and adjustable rate rear dampers is the way to go.

[syncropaddy]

Totally agree with the way Simon is going. Colin Chapman always used soft springs and stiff dampers believing that if you have suspension it should be able to work!

[jed the spread]

To be honest it is through watching Russel's 16" doka off road through at least 2 really hard core green laneing weekends and a few middle of the road ones that got me thinking about this. He has 2wd springs on the fronts with loads of spacers, the van sits high and they compress like a good un .
giving loads of tyre/ground conection.



That van of his never gets stuck and although its probably got something to do with his driving ability I have only seen it lift a wheel a couple of times. Your right about Jakes camper though he did need them on the Morrocco overland trip in a fully loaded expedition set up on roads that Simon mentioned but I personally wouldnt be loaded up with 12 bags of multi finish going green laneing.

jed

[Russel]

I have some other tricks on my suspension that act with the springs .
There is a big difference in those 2 photos of jeds van verses jakes one. The vans are at totaly different angles and jed is traveling down as jake traveling up.
I use to totaly compress my seikle springs on my west on quite a few occasions.
So many people are always going on about articulation, this is very aplicable to all 4x4's THAT DONT HAVE DIFF LOCKS. Due to our vans being desighned for good road use (unlike a vehicle with extreem articulation) VW fitted diff locks. Used correctly articulation is out the window.
There is a disscusion on diff lock about this at precent. There is a vid there that clearly shows the enourmouse advantage of difflocks over articulation.
Well thats my penny's worth.
Russel

[v-lux]

The way ive always understood suspension (from downhill mountain bikes) is...

Spring rate - governed by the overall weight on the spring. So vehicle + load (water, fuel, people, other tat) The correct spring puts the shock just above halfway through its travel, this measurement is referred to as 'Sag'
(There is precise adjustment on a good MTB shock as they have a threaded adjuster to fine tune the sag)

Compression damping - This is governed by the weight of the oil and the settings of valving inside the shock. The heavier the oil, the higher the rate of compression damping - meaning its slower through the stroke of the shock and harder to make the shock bottom out and vice versa.
(high speed compression is whats used when fork hits a big bump ie the shock is moving through its travel quickly and ramps up towards the end of travel) (low speed compression is for when its only moving a little over small bumps and is very supple to allow the wheel to track over the ground)

Rebound damping - This is the rate at which the spring rebound is dampened. The correct amount of rebound damping should bring the shock back from full compression to the point of 'sag' quickly but without any bouncing.

There are other factors that come into play of course. The weight of the wheel (unsprung weight) has a big effect on things but we can probably assume that most of us have fairly similar weight wheels (except Russel of course).

The spring rate is probably mostly governed by the weight of the vehicle and its contents rather than any other factor. Unless you have a rock crawler which is never going to drive fast enough to need anything but huge amounts of squish to keep in line with the outrageous amounts of articulation.

Most vehicle shocks ive come across don't have the full range of damping adjustments, usually only compression damping. Some allow you to fine tune the spring rate with a threaded collar. No idea what sort of rebound adjustments they have, most probably just set at a value.

So to conclude,
Unless you've made your van heavier or regularly carry heavy loads then the stock spring is most probably the correct spring rate.
If you want more ground clearance then the spring needs spacers added, not replacing with a stiffer spring. (but watch the sag!)
If your van bounces around all over the place and your on standard springs then you probably need new shocks/altered damping.

Phew, glad i got that off my chest.... anyone got any thoughts?

[axeman]

what do you mean spacing out ?

longer springs with the same number of coils? or adding spacers on top of the springs? from my understanding adding spacers will only give you more height not more travle. as you are only adding to the total lenth of the spring. within the strut and you will be governed by the amount of travle within the shock. i may be wrong but that sceams logical to me.

any how back to my first question,i called a couple of tyre shops today and no one seamed to have the foggest what i was talking about so what should i do, baxter i a little too far to get this sorted.

thanks neil

[jed the spread]

any how back to my first question,i called a couple of tyre shops today and no one seamed to have the foggest what i was talking about l

Just tell them you want your tracking doing and camber looking at, drop it off and give them the printed sheet with your requirements highlighted. Did you try that place at the bottom of Sutton high street near Champions? They might be lost with your translation over the phone, you know what it can be like trying to explain on the blower.

jed

[v-lux]

Neil, you are totally right.

Not travel...ground clearance!!

I'll E D I T my post so it makes more sense....

[syncropaddy]

The weight of the wheel (sprung weight) has a big effect on things but we can probably assume that most of us have fairly similar weight wheels (except Russel of course).

In my day, the wheel and suspension components were UNSPRUNG weight. What has changed that basic fact?

Dampers settings are only a compromise anyway. The damper settings for comfort are useless for handling so a 'happy median' is reached for production.

The fear I would have with adjustable dampers is that most people wouldn't have a clue what the correct setting was if it bit them in the ass. Having to adjust my dampers before I go off road and then having to re-adjust them when back on road is as about as attractive a proposition as rubbing sand paper on my piles.

Sometimes 'upgrading' is mistaken for 'retrograding'

And the prospect of having to listen to the nerdy adenoid types laboriously discuss each setting in the pub afterwards ..........

[v-lux]

ooops again... E D I T coming up...

Bloody missus was hassling me to watch some "pooh" pudsey crap on tele while i was writing