T25 1.6TD - very noisy engine and running on oil....

[tj2008]

Any comments from anyone on the latest post???

[HarryMann]

· I have worked on numerous of these engines during my 12 years experience as a diesel mechanic and am well aware of the possibility of fitting a head gasket upside down therefore would not make such a fundamental mistake.

But it appears it was made. By him or someone else.

· Had the gasket been fitted upside down then, as you say, no oil would get to the head or camshaft. If this were the case then the camshaft would have rapidly overheated, the white metal bearings would have melted and the shaft would seize. There is no way the engine would have run for the hour I had it running before it began knocking, the camshaft would have seized long before this. I note from the position of the valves in the picture of the cylinder head that the camshaft has been removed, why was this? You do not need to remove the camshaft to remove the cylinder head for inspection.

He seems to think he knows exactly how long a camshaft takes to seize with no oil!
If camshaft had been assembled with assembly compound, or copious oil, he may be wrong, test or advice may be needed to prve that though.
Some oil may well have been getting past a partially blocked oil hole?

· Although your picture of the block shows valve impact marks on the crown of the pistons, there are no corresponding marks on the valves in the head. If the valves were striking the piston crowns then there would be areas of clean metal on the valve faces and whilst I can count at least 5 impact marks on the piston crowns not 1 of the valves in the head shows any signs of impact.

Is this relevant to your complaint? Do you agree with him? Were the valves subsequently cleaned?

· I agree that the picture of the cylinder head you sent me clearly shows that cylinders 1&4 have not sealed as there is extensive burning to the head caused by hot exhaust gases escaping. There are no corresponding burn marks on the face of the head gasket. Any escape of gases sufficiently hot enough to burn metal will also burn a head gasket.

Relevant? Agree? Cleaned? Wiped?

· Similarly, the burn marks in the cylinder head clearly show that hot exhaust gases were escaping into the engine water jacket on both 1&4 cylinders. Again had this been occurring when I ran the engine I would have known straight away that there was a problem as the cooling system would have pressurised immediately and overheated extremely quickly.

May not have happened during simply idling, but later. Did he test drive it or just run it in workshop. Much lower pressures free-running than under load.

· In the picture of the cylinder head there are signs of water having been in no 3 cylinder i.e. rusty marks, however there are no corresponding signs of water in the bore of no 3 cylinder, in fact no 3 cylinder appears to be in the best condition of them all.

Water often 'cleans' the cylinder, not creating rusty marks. Well known that 'signs' can vary greatly, depending on exact internal conditions

· In the picture showing the cylinder block I note that the vacuum pump in the top right hand of the picture is damaged, the one fitted to your engine when you took the vehicle away was intact.

Do you agree it was intact as delivered? Did it appear intact as it had been 'covered up' in some way, but subsequently foudn to be cracked/broken? You couldn't be expected to inspect every part upon acceptance...? But you have to be sre 'you' didn't break it, or anyome else. Your word against his.

· It is virtually impossible to get the timing wrong on this type of engine provided you have the correct tools (which I have) to set it up.

What is being suggested? Did the cambelt show signs of slipping and was the tension correct? I wouldn't say the timing is impossible to get wrong, but with knowledge, unlikely if care was being taken. The signs elsewhere suggest not.

· I have already addressed the matter of the non genuine gasket above.

The facts are facts, but the make of gasket may not be something you should be confusing issues with.

Stick to one or two basic FACTS, else the matter will become confused as to what your complaint really is.

[HarryMann]

Where are your pictures of the 'as delivered' state of the engine.., prior to disassembly?

The head gasket not sticking out the right place, the jointing compound in the classic leak area.

I'd also suggest that you communicate via written mail rather than email. Or both. A written letter and written response is more legally acceptable, as they can't be altered as easily and would contain a signature

Let the broken vac pump nozzle go, it's quite common and easily done.

[andysimpson]

Hi all,

Update so far - garage are suggesting that I'm wrong. I've attached the main part of the recently received document for you to take a look at and comment;
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To answer the questions in your email, the cylinder head from the engine you supplied, was removed and sent to a specialist engineering company I use where it was examined, pressure tested and skimmed prior to refitting. The engineering company I use does not, as a matter of course, provide a printout of the results. At this stage I have to say that I have never had any reason to complain about the quality of the work of this company in the 12 years I have been dealing with them.

Head gaskets do not blow of their own accord but usually as a result of overheating due to such things as defective radiators or water pumps, or poor maintenance or even being constantly being driven harshly for an extended period of time. Judging by the condition of the engine you supplied, I would say that it had definitely not been well maintained both from its outward appearance and the fact that the oil was so thick that it had blocked the drain hole which had to be unblocked with a screwdriver in order to drain the oil.

When the head was returned I refitted it using a 'Matching Quality Part' (MQP) head gasket, these parts are guaranteed to be of equivalent quality to those supplied by manufacturers and can be used on a vehicle without invalidating a manufacturers' warrantee.

After refitting the cylinder head I started the engine and initially it ran well however after running it for about an hour it developed a knocking sound which was gradually becoming louder and I formed the opinion that one or more of the main engine bearings was showing signs of wear. I have experienced this problem before when fitting a new or reconditioned cylinder head to a worn bottom end particularly if the bottom end is high mileage or poorly maintained. The problem arises because by fitting a new or reconditioned cylinder head, which is very gas tight, it raises the compression ratio of the engine which, in turn, puts increased pressure on the worn mechanical components of the bottom end and can, in some cases, result in their failure. I believe that this is what happened in the case of the engine you supplied.

I note your comments re the work I carried out on your behalf and, having carefully studied the photographs you sent me and also not having been present when the engine was stripped, I make the following observations:-

· I have worked on numerous of these engines during my 12 years experience as a diesel mechanic and am well aware of the possibility of fitting a head gasket upside down therefore would not make such a fundamental mistake.
· Had the gasket been fitted upside down then, as you say, no oil would get to the head or camshaft. If this were the case then the camshaft would have rapidly overheated, the white metal bearings would have melted and the shaft would seize. There is no way the engine would have run for the hour I had it running before it began knocking, the camshaft would have seized long before this. I note from the position of the valves in the picture of the cylinder head that the camshaft has been removed, why was this? You do not need to remove the camshaft to remove the cylinder head for inspection.
· Although your picture of the block shows valve impact marks on the crown of the pistons, there are no corresponding marks on the valves in the head. If the valves were striking the piston crowns then there would be areas of clean metal on the valve faces and whilst I can count at least 5 impact marks on the piston crowns not 1 of the valves in the head shows any signs of impact.
· I agree that the picture of the cylinder head you sent me clearly shows that cylinders 1&4 have not sealed as there is extensive burning to the head caused by hot exhaust gases escaping. There are no corresponding burn marks on the face of the head gasket. Any escape of gases sufficiently hot enough to burn metal will also burn a head gasket.
· Similarly, the burn marks in the cylinder head clearly show that hot exhaust gases were escaping into the engine water jacket on both 1&4 cylinders. Again had this been occurring when I ran the engine I would have known straight away that there was a problem as the cooling system would have pressurised immediately and overheated extremely quickly.
· In the picture of the cylinder head there are signs of water having been in no 3 cylinder i.e. rusty marks, however there are no corresponding signs of water in the bore of no 3 cylinder, in fact no 3 cylinder appears to be in the best condition of them all.
· In the picture showing the cylinder block I note that the vacuum pump in the top right hand of the picture is damaged, the one fitted to your engine when you took the vehicle away was intact.
· It is virtually impossible to get the timing wrong on this type of engine provided you have the correct tools (which I have) to set it up.
· I have already addressed the matter of the non genuine gasket above.

Given the above and in particular the lack of burn marks on the head gasket combined with the lack of impact marks on the valves and the cooling system not pressurizing/overheating, I do not believe that the pictures you sent me are of the engine I fitted to your vehicle.

Had I been afforded the opportunity to strip the engine or be present when it was stripped and was satisfied that I had made a mistake then I would have either rectified the mistake of given you a refund as requested. However I do not believe the photographic evidence you sent me proves any form of negligence on my part therefore I am not prepared to refund your money.


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I have a written document from 2 seperate garages which will easily prove that this is indeed the same engine and the head gasket was installed incorrectly. However - any advice on the points in the reply above would be very much appreciated

What a total load of "Balls". He has alot of facts wrong in that.

1. There are no white metal bearings in the head.
2. The cam will not seize quickly after start up without oil.
3. That head gasket is the wrong way around
4. No new STRETCH head bols were used
5. No new timing belt, no one with any sense would re-use one.
6. As he states 1+4 have not sealed the only reason for that can be he has done something wrong.
7. It easier to get the timing wrong than right.
8. Thick oil in the sump does not automatically mean neglected engine, its fairly common with head gasket failure.

[tj2008]

Thanks guys - much appreciated