Box or Linkage

Post by **windysurfer** » 30 Sep 2008, 08:28

Thanks for the pointers chaps.

I did spend a hour or so under there yesterday wobbling things about and I removed the gearstick and greased that up.Bush at bottom of gear leaver seems OK.
The bushes either side of the spider joint has some play in. The spider joint itself looked OK.

Thing is, I not sure how much they should wobble and am reluctant to start removing the rear joints as I would then have to reset everything, which is tricky on my own.
I've had a good read of the WIKI and my Haynes manual so next chance I get I'll start at the back and work forward.

Hope your right Harrymann

cheers

Gaz

Post by **HarryMann** » 30 Sep 2008, 10:06

Have faith... if it's not noisy or graunchy, Aidan can say what the real chances are of reverse selection actually packing up internally, not vey high I would have thought.

Thing is, I not sure how much they should wobble and am reluctant to start removing the rear joints as I would then have to reset everything, which is tricky on my own.

Then leave that centre bush joint for the mo'... the easiest thing to do as far as maintenance of the rear section is concerned is to drop the g/box slider plate down (2 bolts, but note which side of the lug it fits!)

Clean the ball and socket (onion and cup!) and note that the socket will be lipped inside to a certain extent - ball will wobble in it of course, and as you say, hard to say what the limit is... but if its dry (or was) and greaseless, that's a clue!

The socket-arm is fixed to the selector-rod with a roll-pin, check that this is secure (the arm does not rock back'n forth nor sideways on the rod, at all, at all)

Rear sliding bush - even with a new bush there will be play here as the rod wears down locally, but if it's very sloppy you can imagine that the rod will want to move anywhere but where it needs to when twisting force is put on it. This is the easiest bush to replace, but its best to remove the rod first, which is best done by removing the 'E' clip from the horizontal pin in the central UJ (spider joint). Normally this is on the outside of the vehicle and a head torch is quite handy.

Get the rod in the workshop and remove the nylon grease cup from the bottom of the selector socket, to drive the roll-pin out and down (correct dia. pin punch essential). The arm does not come off easily but try to tap it off and not upset its interference fit on the rod, tapping it evenly. Remove the bush, is it dry or gummy?, are the bellows perished/holed? and clean thorooughly and check the state of the rod. Fit new bush, bellows packing them with grease. Drive the roll-pin in from underneath supporting the arm well.. re-fit.

Its just a 13mm spanner to remove the ball-arm from the box if you want, so that you can clean and check its fit in the cup/socket in't workshop (it can't be misaligned when re-fitting). You can even pack the cup with grease and re-fit the covering bellows securing around (dry/greasless) cup-arm with jubclip or cable-tie, and re-fit complete.

Post by **windysurfer** » 30 Sep 2008, 11:48

Thanks for the reply Harrymann, that exactly what I'm going to do.

Think I might have a spare ball and cup and possibly some other bits on a 4 speed linkage I've got in the garage.

Not sure when I'll get chance to have a look ( rain, dark nights, work etc)
but I'll post the results.

Thanks again for the detailed reply

Post by **Aidan** » 30 Sep 2008, 16:16

if a four speed really loses reverse then the bolt holding the selector fork on the selector rod has fallen out cos it wasn't locktited in on a rebuild or both the selector rod shift bearings have broken up big time, or the bearing under the gear has failed, all of which would leave evidence on the drain plug magnet, and make a noise generally.
It should be possible with a friend sat in the cab pushing the stick down and past the gate for you to select reverse at the box, push the onion fully into the box against the spring and then swivel it backwards into gear, it won't go forwards on a 4 speed.
Then drop clutch and start engine and check if it's actually in reverse. If it is then it's probably the middle joint on the rods has rotated half a spline, and or worn bushes.

Post by **windysurfer** » 30 Sep 2008, 16:34

My box is a five speed ( should have mentioned that

)

but I have a spare 4 speed box which came with a linkage, ball and cup etc.

It does go into reverse if I push over hard to the nearside so sounding more and more like a bush/bushes, which is good news

and there is no noise from the box.

E D I T:Just ordered a couple of new bushes and some new bellows

cheers

Gaz

Post by **HarryMann** » 30 Sep 2008, 17:16

Aidan,

What do you think is the best substitute for the polygrease that VW recommend?
I've used both Mobil Blue (waterproof) grease and now Castrol PH (zinc based as used for brake pivot points)... thought the blue would be good but seems to dry up or migrate a bit too easily.

Post by **windysurfer** » 01 Oct 2008, 18:33

I've followed Harrymann's instruction and currently have the back part of the
linkage stripped down and cleaned in the garage. There is quite a lot of movement in the rear bush,new one on order and is due to arrive tomorrow, so hopefully this will solve the problem.

I also found a stone in the cup part of the ball and cup

Now the linkage is removed I can put the box in all gears quite easily so looks like no humble pie for you Harrymann

cheers

Gaz

Post by **Aidan** » 01 Oct 2008, 20:08

I use moly grease (CV grease) myself, and the most important part is the £3 boot that covers the ball and socket and keeps that grease clean and dry and the stones out. Worth cleaning out the cup well as there will be a build up of dry poly grease and road crud in there.

Post by **HarryMann** » 01 Oct 2008, 20:16

Phew!

I also found a stone in the cup part of the ball and cup Shocked

Note my recommendation that the boot/bellows is mechanically clamped over the cup/socket - others say they never come off, but as usual (!), I seem to have them coming off on my diesel all the time (which does have a different socket arm) but all the same, if boot seems to slide off during extreme selector movement, jub clip it.

That stone must have done some damage?

How sloppy is the ball in the socket? The socket seems to wear worst, but the ball is cheap also I think, so... if bush doesn't solve it, that might be next?

And once you get addicted the centre bush isn't a big job, as long as you scribe up the depth and angle of the spline location first

Post by **windysurfer** » 01 Oct 2008, 20:54

The stone was under the ball (about the same size as the ball) so doesn't look to have damaged anything.

How far into the cup should the ball fit?only about half of the ball was in the cup (so half sticking out) and I wonder if the stone wasn't allowing the ball in any futher?Ball is pretty sloppy in the cup.

I have ordered a new boot and have a jubilee clip at the ready.

Both ball and cup at about £25 each at JK.
Are they likley to be any cheaper from anywhere else? (VW)

I do have a spare of each but they are just as sloppy as my originals

Post by **HarryMann** » 01 Oct 2008, 21:19

Both ball and cup at about £25 each at JK.

Too much I'm sure!!

1) Sounds like stone must have been 'put' there then...

1a) One wonders if this was to correct a (perceived) problem?

1b) and whether this has something to do with your current problem?

2) If your spares are no worse, use them, I found looking dowen on the cup looking at the thickness of the lip gave an idea of best/worst one. Can measure the ball with mic or verniers at various positions (ditto your selector rod where bush rubs, nominal is 20.00 mm)

3) Just check that the original socket is not a longer diesel one (think yours is petrol?), which just might have something to do with this?

4) When in neutral and centred the ball should sit just below the top of socket (from memory) but start to poke out a bit when selecting some gears.

5) Should have said order a new roll-pin, should be OK to re-use but have known one get compressed and then arm sloopy on rod, ensure it is dead tight when re-assembled, think it might also be possible to turn socket 180 degrees to change wear pattern and play? Bet you didn't mark it.... hehe, nor did I mine

Hope that helps.. very strange stone though

Post by **sevy** » 01 Oct 2008, 22:29

when you check oile level get a funnel and some hose pipe and bit of wire hang it on the gutter and use pipe down to fill point saves mess , then check all linkages and adjustment plate around gearstick read Bentley manual or haynes first

Post by **windysurfer** » 02 Oct 2008, 18:35

Just fitted a new rear bush, used my biggest ball in my smallest cup, greased everything up and refitted back on the van.

And what a difference, not only is reverse back where is should be but the gears are now really easy and positive to engage.

Thanks for the advice especially Harrymann for the excellent instructions, they where spot on.

Cheers

Gaz