syncro background...

[jenna]

Hi everyone.. newbie first post (hope the questions aren't too stupid!)

My partner and I run a business that specializes in developing vehicles for motorsport and have been looking for suitable base to use to make a couple of service trucks. We have considered pretty well everything over 7.5 tones already and now are looking at the option of splitting the weight across two smaller vehicles.

I've done a bit of digging around into the syncro (have seen it spelt syncHro too?) and wondered if we could use these as one of the vehicles we already build/run is VW based and runs a heavily modified type2 drive train ( which is probably going to changed to a full syncro set up if we use the DoKa's aswell)...

am I right in that the payload is just 900-1000kg?
I believe that there are a 14 and 16 version how different are they?
Diesel or petrol what's best? (These will be going back and forth to south Africa!) towing a bike trailer (700kg)
I read the subaru ej lump can be fitted, has anyone got one?
Does anyone have any links to pics of the rear suspension.. is it the same as an IRS bus? (again we make a race setup IRS already)
prices.. seams to a lot on ebay Germany at £300+ why so cheap?
If we put 16" (30"od) wheels on can the gearing cope or is it a new ring and pinion ( can I use any type2 ones?)
Oh it goes on and on... lol but enough for now.

To give you some idea what were thinking I did find this pic..
http://www.xtz850.com/webpics/syncro.jpg
it's obviously a German vehicle and i think it was taken at 'vanfest'?

Jen

[matt]

Hi Jenna, and Welcome
I'll lieave it to someone wiser for a proper answer
however, if its close, https://club8090.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31322
will probally be the best way

[syncro4wd]

Hi,

Nope,its not a german vehicle. This car belongs to Johnny Petterson and he lives in sweden. The basics was a 14inch syncro , loads of work in this syncro.
I think if you do a search on this forum and some other syncro forums you will find most of the answers to your questions .

Erwin

[andysimpson]

Hi everyone.. newbie first post (hope the questions aren't too stupid!)

My partner and I run a business that specializes in developing vehicles for motorsport and have been looking for suitable base to use to make a couple of service trucks. We have considered pretty well everything over 7.5 tones already and now are looking at the option of splitting the weight across two smaller vehicles.

I've done a bit of digging around into the syncro (have seen it spelt syncHro too?) and wondered if we could use these as one of the vehicles we already build/run is VW based and runs a heavily modified type2 drive train ( which is probably going to changed to a full syncro set up if we use the DoKa's aswell)...

am I right in that the payload is just 900-1000kg?
I believe that there are a 14 and 16 version how different are they?
Diesel or petrol what's best? (These will be going back and forth to south Africa!) towing a bike trailer (700kg)
I read the subaru ej lump can be fitted, has anyone got one?
Does anyone have any links to pics of the rear suspension.. is it the same as an IRS bus? (again we make a race setup IRS already)
prices.. seams to a lot on ebay Germany at £300+ why so cheap?
If we put 16" (30"od) wheels on can the gearing cope or is it a new ring and pinion ( can I use any type2 ones?)
Oh it goes on and on... lol but enough for now.

To give you some idea what were thinking I did find this pic..
http://www.xtz850.com/webpics/syncro.jpg
it's obviously a German vehicle and i think it was taken at 'vanfest'?

Jen

Petrols are a waste of time, stock diesels are not much better.
Type 2 ring and pinion will not fit.
Completely differend rear suspension setup to bays, better.
There are a few differences between 14"and 16" i would not pay any premium for a 16".
You will need another trailer full of spares, these things are not reliable especially transmission.
Engines can be easily changed to more powerful ones 1.9td or tdi are a straight forward fit but makes gearobx relibilty worse.
Payload is about 900kg

It would be cheaper for what you want out of them to buy brand new toyota's, it won't breakdown every other weak, the newest ones are 16 years old and most have been neglected due to ludicrous parts prices. As a toy they are great but towing a trailer to africa and back on a regular basis is just mad.

[peasant]

Diesel or petrol what's best? (These will be going back and forth to south Africa!) towing a bike trailer (700kg)

Taking the fanboy blinkers off for a minute, I'd recommend that you look somehwere else.

The stock diesel is underpowered and thermically challenged ..if you fit a bigger one the gearbox becomes the weakest link.

The 2.1 petrol might be able to pull it off ...but it has a bit of a drinking habit and some issues with water leaks.

The very last Syncros were built in 92, so the youngest vehicle you're going to get is 16 years old ...you'd have to sink a lot of money in it to reliably cope with trips to SA and back, towing a trailer and carrying a full load. (After all it's supposed to be a service vehicle and not serviced itself all the time).

If i were you, this is what I'd go for:
http://www.padh.de/html/stammblatt/2006 ... 6_fae.html
[img:755:623]http://www.padh.de/images/stammblatt/20 ... 136fae.jpg[/img][img:755:623]http://www.padh.de/images/stammblatt/2005/man_8136.jpg[/img]
some may come with workshop equipment already ...and it says VW on it (somewhere)
http://www.padh.de/home.html


EDITED to add:
I didn't copy from andysimpson, honest ....

[Boltze]

Hi Jen,

if you want to use a doublecab for a service vehicle search for one with the "Alusingen" cab.

[img1415]http://boltze.dyndns.org/terlinden/pros ... eite05.JPG[/img] [img1417]http://boltze.dyndns.org/terlinden/pros ... eite06.JPG[/img]

here a video of a 16" doublecab with Alusingen: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=0LVy3uw1pBI

[jenna]

Thanks guys for the answers so far...

Any vehicle we buy would be 100% rebuilt (we build race cars and bikes to FIA/FIM standard so one of these couldn't that hard! plerase dont quote me on that in 12 months time ) so I'm not that concerned with age. The 900kg is an issue though as buy the time we put better wheels and tires, a roll cage, roof rack, the genny and four or five people in it it's going to be near on its max weight without much of a stock of parts.

Any conventional car/4x4 is just way to small and isn't going to give us the ground clearance we need unless we start mucking around with lift kits and stuff which I don't want to as that then means yet another lot of spares to be carried... (part of the fleet is a race range rover so if the worst come to the worst id rather run yet another range rover )

Peasant roughly what MPG does the 2.1 return (can't be worse than the 8mpg of the range rover!)...

We have looked at the 8.13 but it's in that pile that doesn't give us the scale to carry everything on one truck/trailer and has only 3 seats but it's to big to be easily used as a general purpose vehicle, also as these come in at over 7.5 ton the paperwork goes through the roof ( tacho regs, operator licenses, bi monthly MOTs and a big import duty in some African countries..) If we have to go this way we may as well spent the money and buy an 18ton merc(£6k) or 8x8 tatra(£4k) which work out much cheaper to buy.. ( but the tatra was ruled out because on average the best mpg is jus t3-4 with a 45 mpg top speed but then you get a lot of diesel with the £4k difference in Africa)...

Matt I did read something about it on the syncronauts pages and will probably pop along as Whaddon is quite literally just a few miles up the A5 from us, thanks for pointing me to the full thread.

I'll see if I can find some links for Johnny Petterson, thanks for the name and info syncro4wd.

Lol as you can see this seems to have more questions than answers

[andysimpson]

Thanks guys for the answers so far...

Any vehicle we buy would be 100% rebuilt (we build race carsand bikes to FIA/FIM standard so one of these could that hard!) so I'm not that concerned with age. The 900kg is an issue though as buy the time we put better wheels and tires, a roll cage, roof rack, the genny and four or five people in it it's going to be near on its max weight without much of a stock of parts.

Any conventional car/4x4 is just way to small and isn't going to give us the ground clearance we need unless we start mucking around with lift kits and stuff which I don't want to as that then means yet another lot of spares to be carried... (part of the fleet is a race range rover so if the worst come to the worst id rather run yet another range rover )

Peasant roughly what MPG does the 2.1 return (can't be worse than the 8mpg of the range rover!)...

We have looked at the 8.13 but it's in that pile that doesn't give us the scale to carry everything on one truck/trailer and has only 3 seats but it's to big to be easily used as a general purpose vehicle, also as these come in at over 7.5 ton the paperwork goes through the roof ( tacho regs, operator licenses, bi monthly MOTs and a big import duty in some African countries..) If we have to go this way we may as well spent the money and buy an 18ton merc(£6k) or 8x8 tatra(£4k) which work out much cheaper to buy.. ( but the tatra was ruled out because on average the best mpg is jus t3-4 with a 45 mpg top speed but then you get a lot of diesel with the £4k difference in Africa)...

Matt I did read something about it on the syncronauts pages and will probably pop along as Whaddon is quite literally just a few miles up the A5 from us, thanks for pointing me to the full thread.

I'll see if I can find some links for Johnny Petterson, thanks for the name and info syncro4wd.

Lol as you can see this seems to have more questions than answers

The trouble is always going to be gearbox, there is nothing that can adapted to fit without completely changing everything except audi r8(mega money). Its not just a couple of components that are weak in the gearbox, its just a box of sh!te.

2.1's will not move when fully loaded, pulling a trailer with larger dia tyres, these are the worst engines vw ever built and they have built some sh!te.

A 1.9 diesel would be ideall if you could sort out gearbox issues, much quicker than the petrols and tons better on fuel.

They can cope with weight much better than they are plated to, i have had about 2 tons on back of my single cab, only problem was brakes could not cope.

On the plus point with a decent diesel engine they are nice for towing.

[Syncro G]

Though I think they are great vehicles, I'm not quite sure they are the weight catagory your after, makeing all their spacific issues irelivent.

As a comercal vehicle they are designed to function properly at max load but exceeding that rateing could cause you problems, maybe with the vehicle but possably with legal issues if your crossing borders somewhere and someone decides to weigh it - your call really but 5 people plus their stuff will start to fill it up!

Sounds like you want something ex army, as they make solid stuff that should be able to stay out of trouble (repaint it though so it won't get shot at in Africa! - army drab is not a good look). Have you considered something like a Pinzgauer? Probubly not as stable as a syncro when being thrown around but better than a bigger truck, lighter, faster, better on fuel... Not sure on payloads but I think the 6 wheelers can take a couple of tonnes each and are well under the 7.5t gross limit. Would have thought if you want something that can carry over a tonne, reliably and quickly across varying terain long distance, that should fit the bill. Proper diesel ones are still costly but on the plus side a direct MOD release should have been looked after so won't need too much work. Simular ideas would be the Volvo C303 but I think compaired to the Pinz they look a bit out of date, cheeper though.

Most 4x4 cars/utility things like Hiluxes, defenders, discos will have simular weight load issues to the syncro though they can probubly tow more, in some cases much more. Wether you want to do long hauls cross country with a trailer in tow though is a different matter. I know given the choice of small vehicle+trailer or big vehicle I'd choose the big vehicle every time for off/rough roading.

[Mudlark]

Putting another perspective on it; my syncro was prepared by the previous owner to take him from Canada to Alaska and to the southern tip of south America; he put in a 1.9tdi and had the gearbox rebuilt and did 120,000 Km without any gearbox issues; he also dragged a trailer full of parts behind him that he never needed, and the van itself weighs in over 2500kg

Pictures in the garage

https://club8090.co.uk/forum/garage.php? ... ge_id=1499

Admittedly I have just had Aiden overhaul the gearbox now, but after 120,000 km it was due for some TLC

[jenna]

thanks Boltze, there a few pics of these in various forums so nice to know who did the conversions thank you.

The need to carry 5 and a trailer is not going to be the norm more a case of must be able to, the vehicle will probably run with just two people and no trailer most the time (defiantly 90% of the time off road) as their main job is sweeper vehicles to collect up bikes/quads that the riders have given up riding in the dunes/sand either from exhaustion or mechanical failure... the need to tow a trailer is just to move as many bikes/quads as possible back and forth from the UK to Morocco to keep costs to a minimum.

SyncroG I agree with your comments that we do have to abide by the legal weight of the vehicle as were a business. Certainly in Africa it's not an issue but travelling around Europe as these will do we have to abide by the law 100%.

MOD release vehicle do tend to be a lot more expensive than public buys as most buyers want low mileage one owners as such, for us this isn't an issue as we will rebuild/upgrade anything we buy... i'd rather pay £1k for a tatty vehicle and spend £6k on rebuild than £7k on an ex mod and send it out with crossed fingers. The Pinz is a great vehicle but it's not happy at any sort of normal highway speed and spares for these come at premium, it's the same with the Mog.. a u1300 mog would be great but were not going to find one and rebuild it for under £20k which is way over the budget.

Haven't come across the C303 so will have a look at that one too, thanks

If we were to find a syncro double cab either in the UK or not what's is a realistic value for it... we would be looking for something needing a full rebuld rather than tax tested and drive away show special?

Setting aside the fact the box is not fantastic how much do transaxle/front diff's sell for assuming they come up as parts?

ok and one question more for the techno's, is the vanagon 6 rib syncro box the same box as the 6 rib Doka with the additional drive/casing?... we already run HD 4speed transaxles has anyone looked at adapting these as they seem fairly strong (normally fifth gears are gearbox design weak points) to take the syncro adaption (assuming it's an adaption)...

[peasant]

We have looked at the 8.13 but...these come in at over 7.5 ton ...

just on that note:

In Germany at least, it is no problem to have these registered at (and all the paperwork changed to) 7.49 tons before you buy.
(The seller in the ad would do this for you, if requested)
Still carries 3 tons, but all the other hassle disappears.

[syncroand101]

With added tail lift - you may have seen this, a good write up.


http://www.overlanders-handbook.com/MAN/index.htm

[Russel]

Get a VW LT 4X4 crew cab. 4.5 ton.

[jenna]

With added tail lift - you may have seen this, a good write up.


http://www.overlanders-handbook.com/MAN/index.htm

chris sold this one soon after its first trip, last i heard it was up in the lake disterict being made into a camper.