Biodiesel & my fuel line

Post by **Swampy** » 26 Feb 2007, 00:02

Evening All. A bit of advice required, really from those experienced with Biodiesel.

I hope to start using a local Biodiesel filling station for the next few months at least. Van will be running on 100% Biodiesel.

I've read on a few websites that I will need to change my fuel filter at some point as all the clag from the petrodiesel finally works it's way out.

I've also read that I may have trouble with my old fuel lines wearing out.

I have a 1985 1.6 TD Van. Can anybody tell me how regularly I should change my fuel filter after making the switch to 100% biodiesel? Also, should I look at replacing my fuel lines soon, or are the VW fuel lines safe enough?

Any advice on the subject appreciated. Thanks.

Post by **ermie571** » 26 Feb 2007, 14:50

Think Louey is the one to answer this....he seems to be very knowledgeable on biodiesel
Emma

Post by **Louey** » 03 Mar 2007, 15:48

change your fuel filter after a hundred miles roughly after you start using Bio, then carry a spare but only change it if you need to or at normal service intervals (ie. when you do the oil and oil filter, air filter etc.)

As for the fuel lines - if you are worried about themand you don't know when they were last changed then change them - especially the ones between the injectors and from the filter to the pump. Again carry some spare fuel line, Bio is a bit more acidic but you needn't worry as long as you inspect them once a month which you should do whatever fuel you use.

Out of interest, how are you paying per litre? I'm paying 74.9p - just filled up for £45 this morning

Post by **Swampy** » 04 Mar 2007, 21:57

Sounds like sound advice to me. The Van's due for a service, so I'll give it the full monty after 100 miles.

As for price per litre, I'll be filling up at Ashford in Kent for 90p per litre.
Down here in Dover I'm currently paying 92.9p per litre for diesel, so it's not a huge saving. I'm in it more for the emissions & the fact that it's brewed locally. Wouldn't mind paying 75p a litre for it, mind!

Thanks again. That now gives me an idea of when to check/change everything.

Post by **airhead** » 04 Mar 2007, 22:09

Youre not saving the environment much by using bio-diesel. It still uses petrochemical elements and gives off some nasty fumes. Its only cheaper cause it uses vegetable oil as a basis, but theres things like caustic soda in it. Im more of the opinion that if youre going to do anything, then pure vegetable oil is the way to go. If you dont believe me, have a look at http://www.bio-power.co.uk. The guy who runs that site has a t25 running on used vegetable oil, which he also sells as fuel.

Oh, and youre getting royally ripped off at your local garage too by the sounds of it.

Post by **Louey** » 06 Mar 2007, 11:15

true words about the stuff in bio - I do normally use straight veg, but I had a problem during a couple of cold mornings so I'll get back to it soon

Post by **Swampy** » 06 Mar 2007, 22:10

A fair & valid point about the price. I must admit I called the supplier today to arrange a regular time to fill up & he couldn't even give me a regular day that I could turn up, which bothered me.

I did consider running the van on straight veg oil, as I can do that myself & it does save mucking about with harmful methanol. The problem was I read so much about washing the resulting biodiesel that I thought just putting SVO in the tank would knacker the engine.

I did hear that heating the oil & mixing a small amount of White Spirit improves the viscosity & makes it more diesel-like. Don't think that helps the cold mornings problem, though. I'll have a good read through that website, mind.

Post by **Louey** » 07 Mar 2007, 13:42

I've used it straight for ages and only had a couple of cold start issues. Just pop to your local Asian supermarket and get a 20 litre drum

Post by **lambrettalee** » 10 Mar 2007, 20:40

ive been using tescos cheap veg oil in mine on a 20% mix and shes sweet, even runs quieter...

Post by **airhead** » 10 Mar 2007, 21:41

Louey wrote:I've used it straight for ages and only had a couple of cold start issues. Just pop to your local Asian supermarket and get a 20 litre drum

Ahh good man I never thought of checking the Asian supermarkets. Ill check them out actually.

Post by **mister smith** » 21 Mar 2007, 12:39

Hi guys,

I have to disagree with airhead about biodiesel not being that good for the environment. I do agree though that pure veg is the way to go, both for the environment and convenience/cost etc.

B100 (100% biodiesel) will typically have used between 10 & 20 % by volume of methanol in its production. (Methanol isn't a petro-chemical. It can even be created naturally).

That means that at least 80% of the end product is sourced from a natural grown thing. Vegetable oil, whether pure or in biodiesel, is sustainable, and pretty much carbon neutral (all CO2 emmited by burning it will be absorbed by the next years crop of the same).

Compare that to mineral diesel and I reckon it's extremely eco friendly.

Even burning pure veg oil emits some nasty fumes, including having higher NOX levels, its the nature of burning things.

And if you want to stick white spirit in pure veg oil to thin it, just remember that on a morning when the tank has settled, the white spirit & veg oil will have seperated, and you will be straining your fuel pump and injectors by forcing unthinned veg oil through them until you've driven agressively for 10 minutes. Look at a heat exchanger on your fuel line, 2 tank systems, and stuff like that.

Like airhead said, pure veg oil is THE way to go

check this site out, the best info I have found on the web for running on both pure veg oil and biodiesel

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

I'm lucky really, like louey I can get B100 bio for 75 p per litre, my engine loves it. Smoother & quieter.

Post by **billymaya** » 21 Mar 2007, 17:05

just by reading your comments on here im no expert and havent really looked into this veg oil thing but how much work do u have to put in to instal this system or is it simply a case of pouring it in lol does it work with crisp and dry ?

Post by **Swampy** » 21 Mar 2007, 22:21

And if you want to stick white spirit in pure veg oil to thin it, just remember that on a morning when the tank has settled, the white spirit & veg oil will have separated, and you will be straining your fuel pump and injectors by forcing unthinned veg oil through them until you've driven agressively for 10 minutes. Look at a heat exchanger on your fuel line, 2 tank systems, and stuff like that.

I thought that if you mixed them up the reaction that takes place prevents it from settling.

I had a read of the method on http://www.bio-power.co.uk and as far as I can make out, if you heat the oil & mix it with the white spirit, you need to leave it about 2 weeks for the fuel to settle before putting in the tank. During that time any separation is done then. What's left over on top is fuel.

Right, that's it. I'll give Customs & Excise a call, mix up a batch, document it with photos & see what happens after 2 weeks. If there's any difference between straight veg oil & the stuff I mix up I'll post results. If it all looks good I'll stick it in the tank & start driving with an increasing mix to see what happens.

billymaya, I think a lot of people are just adding straight veg oil to their fuel tank, mixing it with regular diesel to stop it clogging up the engine when cold, so you could add Crisp'n'Dry as an additive, so to speak, with no risk to the engine. You just run the risk of Excise finding out if you haven't declared it!

From what I've seen of heat exchangers they look easy to install, but I'm not yet sure about laying out several hundred quid for one.

I do think Biodiesel is the way to go at the petrol pumps. I was kind of hoping that local concerns would start taking some of that profit away from the large multinationals & force them to adapt, but I'm not sure if it's really taking off in a professional way. Not round Dover that I know of, anyway.

Post by **mister smith** » 21 Mar 2007, 23:13

@ Swampy,

no disrespect, (just dont want you to destroy your engine mate

) but the whole 'mix it with white spirit' thing is a crock of 5h1te. White spirit will only thin it out, temporarily. It will separate again quickly. You are left with veg oil & white spirit. Force cold veg oil through your fuel system and it will fail. Maybe instantly, maybe after a year, but it will fail, and it will be expensive when it does. Simple as.

Some fuel pumps rely on the fuel for lubrication. This type blows the fastest, because until the veg oil it is up to temperature, it is too thick to get where it needs to. No lubrication = dead pump.

What you described is the process for making biodiesel:

You test your veg oil, then create a lye/methanol mix to suit, add it to the veg, let it settle (days). The methanol mix (methoxide i think) reacts with the free fatty acids in the veg oil, and converts them into glycerin. The result is a layer of glycerin, a layer of cack and a layer of bio-diesel.

The whole process is a bit more involved, but you get the idea. Check out the journey to forever link above, it's full of great info.

As for heat exchangers, they don't cost several hundred quid.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/heat-exchanger-ve ... dZViewItem

@billymaya

a 2 tank system is a (fairly) simple way of running fairly safely on veg oil.
You need a second fuel tank, extra fuel lines a fuel valve to switch between the two tanks, and a heat exchanger on the fuel line. An extra filter won't go a miss either.

The theory is you run mineral diesel or bio diesel in a small tank, simply for starting the engine on. Once the engine is up to temperature, the heat exchanger gets the veg oil so hot that its a similar viscosity to diesel. At this point you can switch to the veg oil tank. This way, the fuel pump isn't strained at pushing cold thick oil through the system. 5 minutes before you're gonna turn off the engine, switch back to the mineral diesel tank to purge the system of veg oil so when you start up again there's no veg in the pump.

It's not a quick and easy thing to do, but then again it's not rocket science either. There's a ton of info on the web about these systems, it's would be easy for me to repeat what's already out there (more than I already have

)

There is a lot of bad info out there as well, but the more you read, the more you know....

Post by **airhead** » 21 Mar 2007, 23:17

Ive found my van very hard to start on the particularly cold mornings over the last while. Im back on pretty much straight diesel again now as a result. That said, I havent given up. Ill be using it in summer, and Im aiming towards getting an elsbett SVO kit for my engine. It comes with new injector nozzles with a finer spray pattern, hotter glow plugs and the relay to get them to sty on longer, an exchange fuel preheater and an electric fuel preheater, extra fuel filter, wider fuel lines and a priming bulb for in the fuel line. I think theres other bits too but I cant remember what. The whole kit is €690. I might just try to source the parts separately. Would probably work out a lot cheaper.