Inter cooler or charge cooler?

[jed the spread]

I had one of the Oettinger charge coolers on my Westy when I first got it. It had some kind of weird engine install without a turbo that must have been after the factory engine and Russel wanted to scrap. I carefully removed it and sold it to Baxter just because the radiator was HUGE and I wouldn't be able to fit a oil cooler rad or two up front but I did hang on tho the Oettinger boost gauge that Is quite nice and cool to have.

I have a charge cooler set up from a factory car that the rad fits really nice up front and the cooler unit fits inside the engine bay without having to drill big holes through the wheel arch and having pipe work exposed in there. It cost about £80 from ebay for the lot. Dunno how good it is though as I haven't plugged it in to check my air intake temps on a super hot day as I am usually out enjoying myself somewhere...

Jed

[Simon Baxter]

Still got it in a box somewhere.
I bought it for a customer but he didn't want it.
Also get the Oettinger injection pump too, part of the same conversion.

[smokeyjon]

Smokeyjon, I'd like to know exactly what model of intercooler you've got, having the in/out on the same side makes this kind of setup much neater.

I believe it was Mk2 GTD Andy but I can't be sure. Similar to the saab one in that ebay link but not rectangular in section. It's a parallelogram so is mounted to suit (ie it's not quite horizontal). Too 'built in' now to get a part no. now I'm afraid!!

In terms of mud I built a sort of poo guard out of stainless sheet that sat above/behind the mudguard. Not very pretty or professional looking, but I've never had any problems with clogging (even now that I haven't got mudguards fitted), but to be fair I haven't done loads of offroading (van got a bit muddy at syncro25 but didn't block intercooler). Fan runs constantly (via relay switched by alternator) and surprisingly still seems to work after at least 20k miles!

I'm considering AAZ to TDi conversion and wondering whether to swap to charge cooler. Some data from this type of setup'd be good from any TDiers set uplike this who can read their data. I discussed it with Tim at Ultimate Engineering today and he had air-to-air like this sometime ago (but without a fan). He downloaded the data and reckoned it was pretty much worthless. He now ducts from underneath instead (not workable for a syncro)

Gotta be better than nowt though 'paddy

I'll try to find or take some pics of mine

[Simon Baxter]

Rectangular to round.

[jed the spread]

Also get the Oettinger injection pump too, part of the same conversion.

That bit he didn't tell me, never trust a j'aunge...

Jed

[smokeyjon]

A couple of pics of my similar set up:

Not much to see really! Excuse the ahem, shed guttering (the joints are at least sealed now!)


Hole for air flow exit:


I'd love to know if it actually does anything! I look fwd to data from yours syncropaddy!

[syncropaddy]

Some data from this type of setup'd be good from any TDiers set uplike this who can read their data. I discussed it with Tim at Ultimate Engineering today and he had air-to-air like this sometime ago (but without a fan). He downloaded the data and reckoned it was pretty much worthless. He now ducts from underneath instead (not workable for a syncro)

Gotta be better than nowt though 'paddy

I'll try to find or take some pics of mine

Data would be useful but most people forget or dont know in the first place is that for data to be of any use there needs to be parameters to compare. The theme of this thread is heading towards 'chargecoolers are better than intercoolers'. Ok, but which chargecoolers are better than which intercoolers, what pipework is used, where is everything positioned and what is the data used to come to this conclusion? Who has the data from a rolling road that says that this particular system is better than that particular system as fitted to a T3 Syncro?

The information that is used to decide that 'chargecoolers are better than intercoolers' is nothing more than impressions from people who dont actually know .....

For me Intercooling is better because I have a rad, some hoses and it has less to go wrong and didnt cost anything. Is it useless like somkyjohn was told? Maybe the way it was done wasnt right which made it useless ......

[smokeyjon]

I'd just like data on which system gets the inlet air temp the lowest. But I guess you'd need to know that te utside ar temp is the same etc

The next question is is it worth adding air scopps like these:
https://club8090.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=116734

I think Bernd Jager also used to do them...

[jed the spread]

Looking forward to your readings and hope it works out well Paddy

Jed

[syncropaddy]

I'd just like data on which system gets the inlet air temp the lowest. But I guess you'd need to know that te utside ar temp is the same etc

The next question is is it worth adding air scopps like these:
https://club8090.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=116734

I think Bernd Jager also used to do them...

I reckon the scoops are a must for an installation like this

Looking forward to your readings and hope it works out well Paddy

Jed

I wont have readings because I wont be fitting gauges. To proove if it works at all will be simple - run the van with it off and run the van with it on. The conclusions will be simple. Then the two questions will be answered.

Q. Does the intercooler work or make any difference?
A. Yes/no (delete which ever is not applicable)
Q. Which is better, a charge cooler or an intercooler?
A. I dont know but I fitted an intercooler cuz it was cheaper and has less to go wrong

[Simon Baxter]

I had a Intercooler fairly much as smokey Jon has.
It was sh!te.
I gave it a fan, it was better.
It got better still when it was vented to the back of the van where the low pressure is as it helped draw air out.
I give it an charge cooler, better still, but now with a big hole in the body.
Humph.

[keith]

I had an intercooler.....but wasnt confident it was getting any airflow.....didnt take any readings though.

Now with intercooler...
Took vag com readings last week.....ragged around dual carriage way and air inlet temp never got above 35 degrees.....and then dropped rapidly to 20 somethings.

Agreed that there is more to go wrong......if you can make air work then thats a good thing.

As to how much difference 5 degrees or 10 or 20 makes tothe temp of the charge......i have no idea.
After all.....they arent dragsters.

[jed the spread]

interesting....

If you are going to the trouble of fitting a cooler then surly you want to know if it is making a difference via readings?

To be fair I have got lazy with mine but thats because all I need to do is plug it in and look on a computer screen and it was OK when first fitted, but with a mechanical set up how can you tell if an air or water cooled set up is even working if you cant get an accurate measurement? And doesnt that just go back to the what is best without really knowing ethos?

I know someone who fitted a oil cooler in a rear scoop once and told me it was rubbish but thats a whole different kettle of fish.

Jed

[jebiga41]

From my experience of charge cooling it seems to drop the engine temperatures dramatically my temp needle sits halfway between the diode and white line and oil temps are around 80 I'm running a Subaru (the same as the celica) chargecooler which fits neatly behind the rear light and is linked to a pace pump and rad the coolant is always lukewarm even after a long run. Despite not having inlet temps I have been informed by Sharon and pete that they were getting inlet temps of about 20- 30 degrees Celsius on a similar set up. Regards to cost and hassle of set up the biggest hassle I had was routing of feeds to and from the turbo to cooler to manifold putting the rad upfront and connecting up some hose was no big deal and would consider it a lot easier than cutting holes out of the van and trying to seal things in but that's just me. Hope it goes well for you Andrew but still think you should go charge cooler route considering you have all the parts and wouldn't cost you anything

[hotpod]

i am beginning to like the chargecooler idea for the fact that it can be positioned anywhere and that getting cooling air to a radiator behind the front grill is a given whereas the airflow to behind the back light via the ear seems to be a bit of an unknown. those ears presumably provided enough air to keep an Aircooled engine cool though although there was a permanently running large fan inside doing a lot of the work i suspect.
perhaps thats the key? a fan but also somewhere for the air to exit also.