starting issue - ignition - Leisure - Diesel Westy

[colinthefox]

The red/black wire is normally the colour for the starter activation wire. It would be 12V when the starter is operating, and effectively earthed through the starter solenoid any other time. That would mean the relay would not operate at the same time as the starter, avoiding the leisure battery draining while starting.

That would be great if the relay was operated off the ignition, but if it's operated off the W terminal on the alternator, I can't see why they would do that.

I might be barking up the wrong tree, but just thought I'd mention it.

[Hacksawbob]

Right so an evening spent with the meter, The red black goes to the yellow conector on the back of the fuse box! from there I am not sure how to trace it.


So I spent a while cleaning up the earth crowns and remaking a load of the crimp connectors apart from one big fat mumma earth wire that didn't have much slack... but that didn't look to bad. Put it all back together and AND click click the fooker didn't start again... went to the back and started it with the jump wire to the starter spade straight off! and to add insult to injury it looks like I have lost the tacho in all of that messing.

[Aidan]

take a look at bentley 97.68 for the layout of the back of the fuseboard and identify which plug and pin then look it up on the circuit diagram - contact AndyMc fort a copy of the diesel wiring diagram, most of the westy stuff is in the bentley but obviously only wbx based but the basic loom and fuseboard are the same so there's unlikely to be much variation from that

[Hacksawbob]

Thanks Aidan that makes it C18 which on 97.1 connects it to a number 2 which is an unused relay space that also connects to fuse 5 (unused) which then goes to E14 an unused wire in my diagrams. It seems to join up lots of other things if the relay was there. and also track b which joins it to the ignition switch and the starter solenoid

I disconnected the red black from the leisure battery solenoid and the yellow plug from the fuse box and I got continuity between the two. Is there any way that wouldn't be correct way to test a link between the two? I checked the diesel wiring diagram and the parts of bentley I have in pdf (not complete) and C18 doesn't show a connection outside the fusebox. more confused....

[Aidan]

looking at 97.70 and 71 your pin C18 connects as you say to relay 2 not fitted and also to track b which goes B8 the ignition switch and D24 starter exiter and on to brake waring and on american stuff seat belt warning lights (thus keeping them lit whilst starting if they aren't switched off by handbrake being off and seat belts connected)
I'd surmise that it's purpose is to isolate the split charge relay whilst starting otherwise it'll load up the alternator increasing the load on the engine and making starting difficult as you have found
Then once key is released from the start position then the split charge relay can operate and help itself to some juice as the engine is running

I'm no electrical expert mind and don't do diesel or westy

I always use the basic post 86 wiring diagram as starting point for late vans, they don't vary much from year to year it seems if you look at the nitty gritty, once the golf fuseboard was changed to for 86 MY most of the circuits were fixed

[Hacksawbob]

Yeah but! it should be the earth for the relay! why oh why is it connected to the positive of the starter and some random non existant fuse. The blue wire from the alt is supposed to fire the relay on engine running.
Signed frustrated of Bolton!

[colinthefox]

The red/black wire is normally the colour for the starter activation wire. It would be 12V when the starter is operating, and effectively earthed through the starter solenoid any other time. That would mean the relay would not operate at the same time as the starter, avoiding the leisure battery draining while starting.

The path through the starter solenoid will provide a perfectly good earth for the relay when the starter isn't operating. When the starter is cranking it doesn't. What more do you need?
That's exactly how you want it to work isn't it?.

[CovKid]

Except, that the trigger circuit is only made when the alternator is going fast enough anyway - ie when engine is running. That would take care of that and I'm with Bob here. To clarify, there are two red/black wires on the split charge relay I worked on, a thick one on the centre pin (which I reckon only makes a live circuit when relay is off) and a thinner one on the trigger relay cicuit which technically must be earth as Hacksawbob says. Noticed no difference in starting by directly grounding that terminal I have to say and at least the thing worked as it should when I did.

Trying to trace that thin black/brown wire and figure out why it wasn't providing an earth seemed a waste of time when it was far simpler to just ground the terminal right next to the relay. I don't have a Westy myself and thats exactly how mine works. The live-when-off terminal I just use for a solar panel. I can't see the need to make it any more complicated than that to be honest.

[colinthefox]

Suit yerselves.

[Hacksawbob]

Ok I have disconected the red black from the leisure relay and taped it up then wired the other side of the relay straight to the earth. Now when I start the no charging light comes on and the rev counter is dead until I blip the accelerator then it all wakes up. Alternator output was some puny ammount like 3volts on the blue wire D and blackred W was even less until the engine revved and then it was all fine. I replaced the brush pack but it didn't make any difference. Isn't there a diode pack for the alternator too?

[Aidan]

diode pack is massive assembly inside the alternator, sounds like it may be foobarred, take it to local alternator refurbisher to have it checked out I'd say, unfortunately my man in Warrington hada triple bypass last year and is no longer on the tools but he's ok
but I haven't found another one down here, the skills of fixing things seem to be dying out all the garages now just fit exchange as they are just delivered by the big motor factors, warranted and least work to do so most efficient way for them now, customers don't want to wait a week whilst old one is fixed and newer stuff can't just be fixed as easily

[CovKid]

Mine needs a blip to wake it up Bob. Everything seems to charge ok after that. Not too uncommon and unless it really bugs you I wouldn't worry. Mine has been like that for at least a year.

And sorry Colinthefox, we weren't ignoring you, just trying to get to the bottom of it. I guess this thread should be called "when is an earth not an earth"

Heres a strip down video showing diode assembly inside: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXmLjQ5p7y4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hacksawbob]

Thanks Ralph Colin Aidan! I am not the greatest on auto electricians! I have an old alt in the shed I may strip it. This ones a bit rattley any way bearings may not be good. I'm ok if it's all
Positive lightbulb negative but once you have negs becoming pos I'm lost that's cheating! I had a good root about at the back of the fuse box and I have a better idea what's going on but still not %100 I'm getting a wire diagram just get it straight in my head. I tried connecting the black red to earth (bad idea) with a croc clip and solder melted on start up! so yes its live on start up as Colin says and carrying some serious amps at a guess I have found a westy wiring improvement diagram but I can't make head nor tail of it, it adds a second relay, but like I said it doesn't take much to confuse me! I'll post it up later.
Where's best for a recon, ecp Gsf? It's an aaz do I just go for the jx alt?