Type one engine instead of CT?

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fall-apart-dave
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by fall-apart-dave »

CovKid wrote:Your best bet would be to go hunt out a VW spares graveyard and do some comparing. Had to do that in my case. Ideally you want a WBX lump and type1 lump side by side and look at the differences which whilst subtle will be various. I may be the nearest and certainly the first to try this kind of conversion but you have a lot to suss out in going as far as you're going and you'll need to start with a couple of blocks and spot the differences for starters. Can't see you'll do it any other way fella. Its sure possible but by no means easy and you have to weigh that up against fitting a more modern and dare I say it, efficient modern engine of which there are many.

My type1 was also special, from line bored upwards but that was far easier in a crewcab. If I was doing it today, on a camper, I don't think I'd go that route to be honest but if you're determined, go compare blocks and do some measurements as well as sums - it my not stack up in the end with all the time and effort involved, particularly when a scooby might be a better bet these days. A sooped up bug engine will pull for sure (can vouch for that) but given the room you'll have and adaptation needed, it would make more sense to embark on something much easier to fit and more matched.

As a footnote, I used to haul logs in mine no prob (full load at that) but it was HEAVY on fuel even unloaded. Thats another side to this that you'll struggle to guess at and it could dampen your enthusiasm very quickly... :cry: It was another project I tackled that everyone said couldn't be done and it was fun to drive but I honestly think things have moved on in terms of technology and that engine would be much happier pushing something a whole lot lighter, tuned or not. If you just want the challenge then fine but its not a perfect solution given the wealth of options now. The cam won't match for starters. I had to do a lot of research to get the right one for that application and consult with a guy who was a professional track racer and we did so many calculations in the process involving tougher and non-standard length pushrods as well as valve geometry measurements that drove me nuts. A sporty bug engine isn't designed for getting a heavy object like a T25 moving. Theres a fair bit of science behind it all and if it wasn't built from the bottom up to do the job demanded of it, its akin to putting a ferrari engine in a steam roller. Power is one thing but it needs to be in the right place. Weight forms a big part of that equation so its not just the plumbing .

Why would I put a WBX and a Type 1 next to eachother? My T25 has a 1600 air cooled CT engine from the factory. The CT is, near as makes differnce, a type 1 engine. I'm not considering a WBX motor or a modern water pumper. I am staying air cooled, and the toss up is between a 2 litre type 4 engine and a 2.1 litre type 1 engine.

I appreciate what you are saying, there are better more reliable engines out there, but I want to keep it air cooled and period. Too many Japanese powered T25's out there, and I would like to see some gentle "jsut for a laugh" drag strip at Santa Pod with it and as such, staying VW is for me important.

The engine is not a race engine from a light Bug, it is an offroading engine from a heavyweight mud plugging offroader. The power and torque are low down, it's designed for pulling hard at low revs.

Fuel economy is utterly utterly pants anyway, a small 1600 pushing around that weight is useless. I have an LPG kit to put on anyway, so that will help.

My question is just that of tinwear, does the CT pancake tinwear fir a standard type one lump? Are there any lugs on the CT case casting not present on a type one that are required for fitment?
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by fall-apart-dave »

billy739 wrote:personally the engine just isant tough enogh for a longterm fit

we would all be fitting motorbike engines it this were the case!

Why would a properly built type one engine be inferior to a 1600CT engine fitted from the factory, or an air cooled type 4 engine?
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by billy739 »

Aircooled type4 not a problem , hence vw built a much heavier engine when they went above 1600cc
they must of had there reasons

i suppose reliability issues are down to servicing / quality of build and driving style

a nice 2.0 perhaps running a post 1990 injection system and a sensible gearbox would do as good

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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by CovKid »

Not here to argue your case on this other than pass on my own experience plus potential pitfalls. Whilst the engines are similar in some respects, it does seem a lot of work involved for an engine not designed for pulling weight. The reason I opted for a specific cam and everything related to that was because it became obvious that I needed something that would pull weight from a standing start (ie great on hills) and plenty of stamina rather than something built wholly for quick acceleration in a small car. :D

I can see your reasoning, just don't think the power curve will be suited. Up to you on tinware - you can cut and grind to suit. Few (if any) would have done this kind of conversion which is why you won't get a barrage of help unfortunately. Just get stuck in. Nuff said.
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by lloydy »

Go on john mayer racing website, he builds type 1 and type 4 race/torquey motors. Wealth of info on there. Long and short of it is a type 4 motor is more reliable when tuned, and is designed to lug a van around.
He's put plenty of type 4 engines in bugs, so would be good to ask him on tinware compatibility.
He does mentioned the biggest type one engine, that gives reliability for day to day driving is 1776cc.
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by fall-apart-dave »

lloydy wrote:Go on john mayer racing website, he builds type 1 and type 4 race/torquey motors. Wealth of info on there. Long and short of it is a type 4 motor is more reliable when tuned, and is designed to lug a van around.
He's put plenty of type 4 engines in bugs, so would be good to ask him on tinware compatibility.
He does mentioned the biggest type one engine, that gives reliability for day to day driving is 1776cc.
Hope it all works out for you

He doesn't do type 4 motors any more :(

I will give it a go and see how it feels. If it's pants, I'll swap it out. Simples!

Thanks for all the help and info guys!
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by CovKid »

It'll pull, no question of that but you may find a different cam suits it better. Only way is to try fella. Reason I suggested getting two lumps side by side is it'll be much easier to ascertain just how much modification is needed before you even start. It saved me a lot of time doing that.
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by fall-apart-dave »

CT is Aircooled type 1 based engine not a WBX, I have a CT engine in mine, I think we got our wires crossed.

I will have the engines side by side when I pull mine out and have the 2.1 sat next to it. I would normally agree with you about the cam, but this engine was designed for heavy mud plugging not for dragstrip. Mud plugging engines are low, torquey, not high revving, van engines are sought after for offroad because their performance profile matches what we require (my heritage is Baja bugs, site moderator over on bajaclub.co.uk so well used to grunty engines! :lol:).

The swap will be happening soon, I shall stick a thread up when we do it. :)
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by CovKid »

Sounds ideal if thats the case Dave. Have fun:D
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by fall-apart-dave »

Swap being done on Thursday. :mrgreen:
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by fall-apart-dave »

For those interested, you have to modify the type 1 to fit the engine support bar, and the CT tinwear does fit with fettling if you use remote oil cooling. Of course none of this is relevant to me, because since I only need an additional 3" of headroom in the engone bay, and the IDF carb's foul the engine lid as well as the doghouse, I'm going to make a new engine hatch out of fibreglass or steel with bulges to allow for the fouling items, and then make some bits of tinwear to make the engine "marry up" with the existing hole in the van. Much, much simpler than messing about and gambling with the pancake cooling keeping the engine cold enough since the existing cooling definately works well enough. It means I don#t have to clart about finding stumpy manifolds and making an airbox or slapping horrible pancake filters on the carbs.

I need to fit a vac takeoff for the servo brakes, and I need a new header on the engine, or some heat exchangers! The existing header is an upright Buggy header (a very nice one, ceramic coated etc) but the one I need is a "straight out the back" affair.

Is there any reason, at all, that given I am using type 1 tinwear, that I cannot use type 1 heat exchangers if I tinker with them?
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by fall-apart-dave »

PS This is the full engine spec...

CB Super Race Rods
94mm B+P's
76mm Crank
Scat C35 Cam
Steve Tims Stage 1 Heads with Stage 2 stainless valves (42x37)
Dual Valve springs
1.25 CB Ratio Rockers
Chromo Pushrods
Match ported Intake manifolds
Original Italian Weber 44 IDF's
CB Hex bar linkage
CB Rotary Fuel pump
Custom Fanshroud
Alternator
Kush-lok friction disk
Kennedy Stage 1 Pressure plate
Hi-torque starter
External Oil Filter (Spin on)
External Oil Cooler
1.5" Merged header
Hooker Max Flo Silencer
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by billy739 »

interesting to see how you completely seal the engine bay from the road

will also be keen to see you still keen after you have driven it for a bit!

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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by fall-apart-dave »

You know, I see Splits and Bays all the time with screamers in them, I've yet to see a single one of the guys say "bugger this, I want stock..." :lol: I think if you knew my previous projects and car ownership you might not wonder about how keen I am. T25 owners definately seem to be a different breed! :) Just wondering why you are so confident this will fail as a concept?

As for sealing the hot and cold sides, most of the tinwear from the CT engine actually fits to the type 1 tinwear, the only piece that doesn't is the tin that goes under the fan, and that is just becuase the pulley I have is a bigger OD.

Today I am fitting the longer throttle cable, swapping the flywheels over (using the 215mm clutch for now, long story!), and waiting for some bits to arrive so that I can mount the engine finally! One little lesson I have learned, always double check the crank case, mine is a Bug case, so has no bosses for the engine support bar to bolt to! So some custom fabrication work needed :lol: Had the engine been built in a universal case I would not have had this problem!
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Re: Type one engine instead of CT?

Post by fall-apart-dave »

Ok so on closer inspection I can't just swap the flywheels, the CT is a 4 dowel crank and the new engine is an 8 dowel affair. I could just whip four dowels out of the crank and run it like that, but we'll see how fast I can get the clutch off the guy and go from there.

The throttle cable is in, and the gearbox side of the mount is done, I just need to get the gearbox back into the position it would normally be in with the engine installed to weld in the chassis crossmember to hold the mount. It's a little agricultural but it's sturdy :lol: In true "Fall Apart Dave" style for those that know my previous work.

I'm having a big issue with the full flow oil system, the pump is an "In-Out" job, and so the adapter kit I have will not fit to get the engine in place. A solution will present its self I'm sure, but we'll see. I think I will take the oil pump off, put a spare stock one I have on for now, get the engine fitted in place and the gearbox support sorted, then I can take off the engine support bar and put the oil pump back on and make a new engine mount with the engine in place.
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