Upper Ball Joint spacer

[syncrowjoker]

please

[syncrodoug]

Any idea on price?

[andysimpson]

Something to think about before fitting these is insurance and safety implications. The forces on these on a corner taken at speed are huge it would be not so bad if the bolts were in the middle but they are not. I see the idea why people want to do it but it really needs someone to make a new top arm. Think what will happen when the ball joint breaks or the bolts break and you cause a big crash, your insurance company certainly won't pay out because its simply bad engineering. How do you plan on decalring you have a 1 inch spacer on your ball joint to your insurance company?

[Russel]

Andy i understand your concerns here. I have been using 20mm spacers for a few year now and quite a few people in SA have been using them for a lot longer with no
problems.
They must be made to fit very snug in the top wishbone and the ball joint needs to fit nice and tightly into it. If either of these are not tight i wouldnt use them.
Using any suspension mod is at the owners risk and can invalidate your insurance.
Russel

[andysimpson]

Andy i understand your concerns here. I have been using 20mm spacers for a few year now and quite a few people in SA have been using them for a lot longer with no
problems.
They must be made to fit very snug in the top wishbone and the ball joint needs to fit nice and tightly into it. If either of these are not tight i wouldnt use them.
Using any suspension mod is at the owners risk and can invalidate your insurance.
Russel

I know people have been using them without incident upto now but the more people use them its only a question of time untill one fails. Also just becuase several people have done it does not change the fact its bad engineering. There have been few people in this country who have raised there syncro enough that the top arm comes into contact with spring, unless it does there is no need for these spacers, and you won't have to worry about ball joint and top arm seperating or your insurance company not paying out.

Russel the ones you had on your red one looked a much better idea to me than the normal spacers people are using.

[syncrodoug]

Russel, do you use steel or aluminium spacers?

[andysimpson]

Russel, do you use steel or aluminium spacers?

Does not really matter Doug, the bolts or the base of the balljoint are the problem.

[syncropaddy]

Think what will happen when the ball joint breaks or the bolts break and you cause a big crash, your insurance company certainly won't pay out because its simply bad engineering.

Why would the bolts break? Surely anyone fitting these spacers would get a proper set of bolts to a proper engineering standard, ie the same engineering standard as the ones fitted by VW. These bolts are made to a standard engineering spec. There is very little load on the top arm ball joint bolts anyway.

Do VW top arm ball joints break? With a spacer on a raised height vehicle, the loading will be pretty well the same as a standard height vehicle so why would it break?

"Simply bad engineering" What??? What makes you say that? Do you have the facts and figures?

I personally think that for a vehicle with a 2" lift, these are a good idea.

[andysimpson]

Think what will happen when the ball joint breaks or the bolts break and you cause a big crash, your insurance company certainly won't pay out because its simply bad engineering.

Why would the bolts break? Surely anyone fitting these spacers would get a proper set of bolts to a proper engineering standard, ie the same engineering standard as the ones fitted by VW. These bolts are made to a standard engineering spec. There is very little load on the top arm ball joint bolts anyway.

Do VW top arm ball joints break? With a spacer on a raised height vehicle, the loading will be pretty well the same as a standard height vehicle so why would it break?

"Simply bad engineering" What??? What makes you say that? Do you have the facts and figures?

I personally think that for a vehicle with a 2" lift, these are a good idea.

Top ball may have a small load in a straight line but not when cornering, the forces will be huge as the outside wheel is being held by bottom/top/track rod. As the van pushes against the outer wheel the side of ball joint with no bolts will try to move away from spacer, it will only stand this so many times before something breaks which will most likely be the ball joint near the bolt holes.

Do you have facts and figures to prove otherwise? The vw ball joint is pushing is a straight line, look how it pushes with a spacer, it wants to flex the bolts/ball joint rather than push on something that cant move. Its nothing to do with ride height.

There is no way an insurance engineer would ever pass it, if involved in a crash and something had failed on front suspension causing it.

If my advise only stops one person fitting these things to their syncro its worth it. If you feel happy with them fit them.

[syncropaddy]

Top ball may have a small load in a straight line but not when cornering, the forces will be huge as the outside wheel is being held by bottom/top/track rod. As the van pushes against the outer wheel the side of ball joint with no bolts will try to move away from spacer, it will only stand this so many times before something breaks which will most likely be the ball joint near the bolt holes.

Do you have facts and figures to prove otherwise? The vw ball joint is pushing is a straight line, look how it pushes with a spacer, it wants to flex the bolts/ball joint rather than push on something that cant move. Its nothing to do with ride height.

There is no way an insurance engineer would ever pass it, if involved in a crash and something had failed on front suspension causing it.

If my advise only stops one person fitting these things to their syncro its worth it. If you feel happy with them fit them.

So let me get this right... the top ball joint "may have a small load"..... now thats a scientific qualification!

I quote "As the van pushes against the outer wheel the side of ball joint with no bolts will try to move away from spacer" ..... and this doesnt happen in the standard configuration I suppose. The ball joint fits into a machined counterbore for location and any forces experienced in use are distributed within that location. The Allen bolts are merely there to clamp the joint into the location and assist while in tension. I assume you have examined the dimensions, fit and finish of these spacers to see if they mirror those of the VW top arm so you can arrive at your conclusion that the ball joint will "try to move away" from the spacer before "something" breaks.

I quote "Its nothing to do with ride height" ..... ????? Where did you get that from? Why is the spacer being made in the first place? When a van has been jacked up the angle of the ball joint/top arm becomes more extreme so the ball joint will be closer to its maximum articulation in normal use. This is not good and to overcome this a spacer is fitted to claw back some of the ball joints natural angle.

I may be an old fart but I've been in engineering probably longer than you've been on the planet!

Whoever makes these spacers for sale, beware, that if you dont have some form of product liability insurance cover you could end up in trouble.

[PC52]

The beauty of the forum! People expressing their views.
Now, I don't have an engineering PHd etc but...
I had these made a few years ago when AndyS and I were playing at how high can you go?
I haven't fitted them yet.
In comparison my spacer side walls are thicker compared to Simon's.
A concern - when cornering the pulling force created on the arm as marked is going to be increased. Therefore the side walls of the spacer need to be increased in thickness to retain the ball joint as the 2 bolts on their own are not going to be sufficent.
I don't know the amount of the force but imagine, 2 tonne of syncro, bigger wheels than standard, hit into a corner a bit sharp, hit a pot hole and potential of off/out comes the ball joint.
VW made the syncro top wishbone arm in cast to accomodate and withstand the rough terrain. Whereas the 2wd are pressed metal.
Simon's is only at the prototype stage I would be looking at increasing the thickness of the walls to start with.

[axeman]

pete have you set up a galvanising rig in your shed? that upper controll arm looks loverly.


what every one is saying seams to make a lot of sence and confuses the matter for mortals like me, however simon have you based your design on the onse that mike ghia has bought from the states? if so surly knowing the way in which americans will take any one to court over any thing. these should have gone through some sort of testing in the states from burley motorsport?

on a seperate note i know for air cooled vw when they are lowered via cutting the beam or by fiting droped spindles if it is a ball joint beam (from about 1967) then you would have to install a pair of long travle ball joints on the top. dose something like that exist for our vans?

neil

[PC52]

pete have you set up a galvanising rig in your shed? that upper controll arm looks loverly.

neil

Ta, that's not the only bit to be done!

[andysimpson]

pete have you set up a galvanising rig in your shed? that upper controll arm looks loverly.


what every one is saying seams to make a lot of sence and confuses the matter for mortals like me, however simon have you based your design on the onse that mike ghia has bought from the states? if so surly knowing the way in which americans will take any one to court over any thing. these should have gone through some sort of testing in the states from burley motorsport?

on a seperate note i know for air cooled vw when they are lowered via cutting the beam or by fiting droped spindles if it is a ball joint beam (from about 1967) then you would have to install a pair of long travle ball joints on the top. dose something like that exist for our vans?

neil

The americans will sell anything aftermarket, look at some of the air cooled performance stuff.

[andysimpson]

So let me get this right... the top ball joint "may have a small load"..... now thats a scientific qualification!

I quote "As the van pushes against the outer wheel the side of ball joint with no bolts will try to move away from spacer" ..... and this doesnt happen in the standard configuration I suppose. The ball joint fits into a machined counterbore for location and any forces experienced in use are distributed within that location. The Allen bolts are merely there to clamp the joint into the location and assist while in tension. I assume you have examined the dimensions, fit and finish of these spacers to see if they mirror those of the VW top arm so you can arrive at your conclusion that the ball joint will "try to move away" from the spacer before "something" breaks.

I quote "Its nothing to do with ride height" ..... ????? Where did you get that from? Why is the spacer being made in the first place? When a van has been jacked up the angle of the ball joint/top arm becomes more extreme so the ball joint will be closer to its maximum articulation in normal use. This is not good and to overcome this a spacer is fitted to claw back some of the ball joints natural angle.

I may be an old fart but I've been in engineering probably longer than you've been on the planet!

Whoever makes these spacers for sale, beware, that if you dont have some form of product liability insurance cover you could end up in trouble.

Oh dear you were the one stating there is little load on top ball joint, i agree in a straight line there is not a huge load compared to corners the outer wheel ball joint has alot to do.

You brought ride height in, i simply agreed it wont make a difference.

Yes i have can see the ball joint is held not just by the bolts but in the hole in the top arm, look at the way it does it in a standard setup the ball joint is pushing straight into the arm, no look at with a spacer, the spacer and ball joint when got a heavy side load will try to bend bolts or bend ball joint base.

You state as been an old "engineer" this is perfectly safe but then state that Simon needs liability insurnace or he could end up in trouble, make your mind up.