Where is the Opie oils man when you need him?
I am going GL-5 because I consider the evidence is strong enough to negate the OEM oil specification, but only on a full rebuild with all synchro baulk rings replaced with the sintered facing type i.e. as per the VW service bulletin.
The benefits (better protection of pinion head and bearing for one) outweigh the small risk and its all about the number and severity of gearchanges. I suspect that the otherwise good condition of my SA trans was due to the majority of miles being done in 5th.
1985 Oettinger 3.2 Caravelle RHD syncro twin slider. SA Microbus bumpers, duplex winch system, ARC 7X15 period alloys
Total have developed a product that suggests it has addressed this issue. It is called called Total Transmission SYN FE 75W90.
This product is sold as 'T.D.L concept' (total drive line) and actually states: for synchronised or non-synchronised manual gearboxes, axles and reduction gears, although it doesn't go into specific materials.
Interestingly the product doesn't say Hypoid in its title branding (as far as I can see, although hypoid gears are covered in its spec) ....the sheer characteristics of low centre point 'pinion to ring gear creating the demand for the increased additive that causes these issues.
I guess it comes down to whether you believe the literature or not....it would be interesting to talk to a TOTAL tech specifically about yellow metal degradation & this product.
CovKid wrote:Aidan is (quite rightly) staying on the side of caution and won't supply a gearbox with GL5 or recommend it. If I were in his shoes I'd say the same as GL4 is what was recommended.
On the flipside I think it is widely acknowledged that GL5 has progressed somewhat and some of the fears based around its use are probably unfounded now. I use GL5 in mine - its been in there five years and although due for a change, I've not had any issues to date.
If I were building gearboxes though, I'd stay with GL4 simply because its safer ground, not because I felt GL5 was completely unsuited. From what I can glean, modern GL5 oil (which meets higher specs) is fine in our transmissions and I tend to agree with others on the net that if there really were issues with using it, we'd know in a big way by now. Its in my transmission but then it is MY transmission - not someone elses
We are in a different situation to having your own van though, this is why I wanted a definitive answer, we have always sourced GL4 as this is what was originally specified for this vehicle as well as mineral oil for the engine, we service 4-6 vans per week on a regular and repeating basis, then on a 2 year change of fluids again religiously with correct specified oils, I know what you are saying, its alright in your van and much as I would try it in my own, most of our vehicles run fully synthetic oil and are much better for it, but imagine if just one of those customers had a problem with an engine or gearbox to the point that trading standards got involved and asked what and where about oils, I'm afraid that it just wouldn't stand up because its not spec. believe me they go to that length as one of the local garages found out to their demise, stick to what is specified is always good advice.
Steve Shaw
Club80-90 Founder Member
Full Service, LPG conversions, Security and Camper Accessories.
see http://www.gasure.co.uk for full details.
01244 659740
I have spoken to Comma Oil this morning about the GL-5 suitability/compatablility with yellow metals and sintered synchro cones in these transaxles, waiting for a call back to discuss in depth.
PS I have also contacted Carlube/Tetrosyl on the same subject, also Classic Oils about Morris XEP80W90.
My email content if anyone wants to follow up another manufacturer?
Dear Sirs,
(Further to my telephone enquiry this morning and by way of clarification) please could you confirm the following:
With regard to your LS80-W90 GL-5 gear oil in particular, we wish to know if it is safe to use in transaxles of 1980's vintage and originally specified for use with GL-4 oils, which have synchronising rings made from yellow metals; also the same with molybdenum sintered facings i.e. are the EP additives of the so-called "buffered" type which will not attack the copper within the yellow metal rings and so cause premature or accelerated wear of the synchronising cones?
Your published data sheets available via the website do not give adequate information on thie subject.
Thank you in advance for your assistance,
Regards,
(inset name)
1985 Oettinger 3.2 Caravelle RHD syncro twin slider. SA Microbus bumpers, duplex winch system, ARC 7X15 period alloys
I have had a response from Morris Lubricants. Make of it what you will, I am still waiting to hear from Carlube:
Thank you for your recent enquiry.
We would not advise the use of our XEP 80W-90 product for vintage and
classic vehicles. This is because this product is formulated using modern
additives that were not around during the 1980's and it is these additives
that are responsible for attacking yellow metal components.
If you can provide the make, model and age of the vehicles in question we
can recommend the correct products that you require.
The vehicle in question is the VW Transporter 3, manufactured from 1980-1992 with manual trasaxle, both 4 and 5-speed. There was aslo an option for a ZF LSD unit. This is the variant for which it is proving difficult to source an appropriate oil.
The differential pinion bearing and neighbouring 4th/5th gear are known for failure due to local overheating*, especially when coupled to higher performance engines which can have double the original HP/torque output, hence the need for a higher performance oil.
The synchro rings (aluminium bronze?) have a moly sintered facing on the cone, as distinct from earlier types that simply have a scroll machined direct into the metal. This was the OEM specification from VW, not an aftermarket addition.
It is our hope that this facing would separate the base yellow metal from the oil at the point of contact during gearchanges and so avoid the inherent molecular "stripping" that occurs during gearchanges and then leads to premature synchromesh failure when using more tenacious GL-5 rated oils.
Your comments on this matter are eagerly anticipated.
*I probably over-exaggerated this bit!
I think at the age of this vehicle we would use the XEP 80w-90 for this application.
As for the overheating it will be a trial and error scenario as the gearbox was not design to take twice the output so I would suggest you may have issue out of your control in this instance.
I hope this answers your query.
1985 Oettinger 3.2 Caravelle RHD syncro twin slider. SA Microbus bumpers, duplex winch system, ARC 7X15 period alloys
When specifying a product, we would always recommend using the vehicle manufacturer’s specification as this is the safest option as our products will have been tested against said requirement. It may be through experience or knowledge through owners clubs etc that the vehicle owner(s) wish(es) to use another product with a different specification however this is not something we can confirm as the product will not have been tested to that specification in that application (in this case a GL5 product where a GL4 is recommended). Certainly we would not recommend the use of a GL5 product where GL4 is specified. Therefore we are unable to confirm if LS 80W90 GL5 would be suitable where a GL4 product is used, although my inclination is not to use it, unless aftermarket parts have since been fitted to the vehicle that would require the use of this alternative fluid; again this would be down to the manufacturer of the part to determine the best product to use, and we would be happy to try and match a product to the new specification that they have stated should be used.
In terms of yellow metal claims, although we do not have any yellow metal friendly claims on any of our products, we are not aware of any issues that have come to light with these metals due to the use of our oils. As far as we are aware, there are no yellow metal friendly fluids on the market, and if there are we would be interested to know who makes it. Indeed although it may have been an issue on very old vehicles, it certainly isn’t something that we have come across in more modern components.
Hope that you find this information useful.
1985 Oettinger 3.2 Caravelle RHD syncro twin slider. SA Microbus bumpers, duplex winch system, ARC 7X15 period alloys
Well the first section is just 'sitting on the fence' obviously not wanting to open themselves up to future 'quotes and litigation. I'm guessing that (if it were possible) a face to face 'off the record' conversation would get a different response, perhaps less 'black & white' and with an actual opinion rather than the 'official' line.
The second section is also very contradicting....firstly saying that there are no yellow metal issues with their products but then saying as far as they are aware there are no yellow metal 'friendly' fluids on the market. EH?
Yep, far from definitive. I think fence sitting is wise if you're trade-based. I should add though, that I've had GL5 in my gearbox for over 10 years now (changed a couple of times). I could be on borrowed time I suppose, but no whines and nothing exceptional found on drain plug. The difference though is its my gearbox and if anything does happen, I have only myself to blame.
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Cov, what kind of mileage have you racked up in those 10 years and what kind of work has it done? Has the trans ever had a full rebuild? Just trying to build up a picture, you know. 10 years like my past 3 would mean 100,000 miles of motorway driving but only lightly loaded!
1985 Oettinger 3.2 Caravelle RHD syncro twin slider. SA Microbus bumpers, duplex winch system, ARC 7X15 period alloys
If I was honest, hammered, and average 10,000 a year? I honestly can't recommend it because from an advisory viewpoint I too would have to sit on the fence but I've honestly had no probs on GL5. Mind you, who knows, it might give up catastrophically.
Same trans from when it was built.
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Read that. My fully rebuilt 5-speed with LSD, filled with LS80W90 GL-5 has only improved with driving and 3000 miles later is as good as any I have driven. If anything it may well be over filled because I tilted the van by parking on the kerb to get 3.8+ litres in and make sure that the closed-body LSD unit filled up. Not checked the level yet.
1-2 shift is typically tricky but no change there, they are rarely good when cold IME...
1985 Oettinger 3.2 Caravelle RHD syncro twin slider. SA Microbus bumpers, duplex winch system, ARC 7X15 period alloys
