Engine Conversion Muse... Subaru or not Subaru

[Globbits]

My tuppenceworth:

My T25 was originally a DF-engined petrol auto. Underpowered, thirsty, lumpy (turned out to be a blowing head gasket) and basically a disappointment
I replaced that with a DG engine, then converted it to LPG and eventually twin-carbed it, still with the LPG. That was actually a really nice combination - reasonable power (until you met a hill) with easy motorway munching (I could cruise at 75-80, without worrying too much about the fuel costs) But hill-climbing was really hard work and she wouldn't tow

So I converted her to an AAZ 1.9TD engine and manual gearbox, thinking "Well that's that - adequate power, lovely torque - what could possibly go wrong?" Er, cruising speed - that's what! She towed brilliantly, but would only cruise at 60 without sounding like the engine would fall out! Don't get me wrong, others have had more luck with their AAZ conversions and the gearbox selection is absolutely critical in this, but I struggled for two years (and 40,000miles) and gave up

I am now more than halfway through converting my beloved van (which is also my daily driver) to Scooby power. I've gone SVX, for three reasons:
1) An SVX came up, locally, for stupid money (I broke the car for more than I paid for it, so the engine was free)
2) The difference in fuel consumption between the 2.5 and 3.3 is (allegedly) about 2mpg in a T25
3) I am totally fed up with my van being off the road because she isn't powerful/cruisable enough. By going for the most powerful option sensibly available (I agree with you about Subaru turbo being more complicated) I am hoping that I will be able to live with this engine for the next 100,000 miles without wanting "more"

Long story short, I think that the easy diesel conversions (AAZ and 1Z) remain underpowered for our vans to be truly useable - at least, as the daily driver I need mine to be. If I were offered a T25 with a more modern VW diesel engine (PD range typically) then it would be a different story, but they are much more complicated conversions. The Subaru conversions are amazingly straight-forward (I have deliberately not said "easy" there) and they are fantastic engines to drive/work with. BUT if fuel-consumption is an issue for you, go diesel - I had a 2.5litre Legacy which I LPG'd and it killed the valve seats in 30,000miles, so I can confirm the rumours are true

One final thing, I have a Subaru Legacy GT twin-turbo going to waste. So if you do fancy playing with turbos, let me know

[Trundler]

Interesting stuff! Thanks for the food for thought. That's a lot of good experience there.

The Subarus are without doubt very tempting and desirable, especially the sixes, but I don't need a massive amount of power (though I do intend to tow a small boat). The valve seat issues are worrying and gradually I've been turning back towards the WBX, which is smooth, sounds lovely, and can cope very happily with LPG. I'm currently looking into exactly what the options are for improving it's torque/power slightly though getting any response out of engine builders has proven difficult so far...

[Globbits]

The valve seat issues are worrying

Let's be clear on this - the Subaru engines are cracking engines, good for 200,000+ miles with very little work - our 1998 Legacy EJ20 (non-turbo) has now done 168,000 miles and all I've done in the last 60,000 of those is oil, filters, a cambelt and brake pads/discs. The cars are bomb-proof!

and can cope very happily with LPG

I'll give you that - I certainly wouldn't go with LPG on a Subaru engine. But actually not because of the valve seats (as you can get lubrication systems for £500). I wouldn't because the injection system is crap for them and it ends up strangling the engine. In any case, you can get 25-30mpg from a Scooby lump in a van - isn't that enough?

Having now dealt with LPG on my own vehicles (Subaru Legacy 2.5 and VW T25 1.9DG) I can agree that the standard WBX lump copes with it surprisingly well. But you will get a lot less torque from LPG, due to the way it burns. You will notice this on hills and particularly while towing. If you are truly happy with the power and torque of your DJ engine (or a replacement one, but still stock) then stop toying with lots of expensive alternatives for what's already a route that you're happy with. But if the power/torque is not enough (and do be honest with yourself here) then you have three choices:
1) A custom-built WBX lump that is unlikely to respond well to LPG (valve seat problems on custom heads and/or excessive fuel-consumption due to carb/cam choice)
2) A standard Subaru lump of your choice that will return far better MPG than the stock WBX lump, but may need expensive tweaks to use LPG nicely
3) A modern diesel lump that will give you squillions of power/torque, but cost a lot to get done well and you don't want a diesel

The reality is we're driving around in a 1.5-2.0 ton aerodynamically-challenged box and I don't think there is "one" answer for this
Some people accept this, dawdle along at 60mph and enjoy watching the world go by
Some people bite the bullet of an expensive diesel conversion
Others bite a different shell and just watch the fuel gauge slowly sink

[faggie]

globbits the svx is definately the option i would choose, as tried the standard wbx motor and aaz and they were both gutless in a heavy camper if i was doing the conversion i would only want to be doing it once ,

[syncroandy]

I' ve been running a '99 EJ25 in my kombi since 2009 (originally an MV), LPG'd using Bigas SGIS plus flashlube. As others have said, its very well suited to the T3, and is an 'easy' install if you select the right conversion parts. They have a wide torque band which makes for a relaxed driving experience.

The 2.5's can eat head gaskets though, as they are basically overbored 2.0's (otherwise mechanically and electrically v similar) and there's less metal there to make a seal. The late 2.0 would be a good upgrade over a DJ.

I would avoid the SVX, its an old, exotic engine that can only just be made to fit, with more compromises (and effort) than the 2.0/2.5, and may find the limits of brakes and drivetrain, without further expenditure. The later H6 would be a great engine for a T3, but again would probably require strengthened gearbox and brakes.

[busbuddy]

Long story short, I think that the easy diesel conversions (AAZ and 1Z) remain underpowered for our vans to be truly useable - at least, as the daily driver I need mine to be.

1Z...underpowered ? really?

never had a problem with mine, daily driver, fully loaded its 2.6 tons and empty its still about 1.9 tons with zero aerodynamic properties

driven it up porlock hill (1in4) with no probs and I dont mean crawled up in first either

[Trundler]

After being very tempted by the Subaru option for a long time, issues such as cost, the complexity of the conversion and what seem to be well-founded fears over the durability of Subaru valve seats with LPG have put me off and I’ve gradually turned back to the trusty wasserboxer. Not as powerful or modern as the Subaru but still a nice smooth engine (unlike the Diesels) and well-suited to the van. It also keeps the VW DNA intact.

I’ve plumped for a slightly uprated 2.1DJ with a balanced crank and rods and a cam with 272 degree duration for £1550 from Elite VW and I’m getting Steve at Gasure to fit it (in August).

I’ll let you know how the job goes and my impressions of the new engine on the WBX replacement thread in the mechanical forum once it’s up and running.

Hopefully, the slightly ‘warmer’ cam will make the engine a bit more lively in the mid-range without spoiling the bottom end significantly. A new engine ought to have better bottom end power anyway, simply because it’s new. I’m also going for closed loop LPG at the same time so that should also help.

[christofy]

I put a subaru ej22 in mine, easy conversion and fits REALLY well using rjes parts. The initial outlay is a fair bit but once done you will love plus you get that awesome subaru flat 4 engine note. Also the engines are cheap as chips so if your engine did go pop for whatever reason a new one wont cost a lot. I have loads of conversion pics on my facebook page if you want to take a look. Just pm me and il send you a link to them. there is a vid on youtube called vw t25 ej22 first run or something along those lines. Ive made some db killers now tho as was a bit load.

[christofy]

I' ve been running a '99 EJ25 in my kombi since 2009 (originally an MV), LPG'd using Bigas SGIS plus flashlube. As others have said, its very well suited to the T3, and is an 'easy' install if you select the right conversion parts. They have a wide torque band which makes for a relaxed driving experience.

The 2.5's can eat head gaskets though, as they are basically overbored 2.0's (otherwise mechanically and electrically v similar) and there's less metal there to make a seal. The late 2.0 would be a good upgrade over a DJ.

I would avoid the SVX, its an old, exotic engine that can only just be made to fit, with more compromises (and effort) than the 2.0/2.5, and may find the limits of brakes and drivetrain, without further expenditure. The later H6 would be a great engine for a T3, but again would probably require strengthened gearbox and brakes.

Cant remember where I read it but the standard vw box is good for up to about 280bhp. My mate runs a 3.0 H6 and his brother a 3.3svx with no probems. agree with you on brakes, I need to uprate and im only running an ej22

[v-lux]

See if this helps you make up your mind....

Little bit of footage of Dai's van in full force:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/83157566@N00/10544255013/

[christofy]

This is mine

http://s1073.photobucket.com/albums/w38 ... e%20velle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bikermike87]

I’ve plumped for a slightly uprated 2.1DJ with a balanced crank and rods and a cam with 272 degree duration for £1550 from Elite VW and I’m getting Steve at Gasure to fit it (in August).

I’ll let you know how the job goes and my impressions of the new engine on the WBX replacement thread in the mechanical forum once it’s up and running.

I was in a similar situation, then I found a very low mileage 2.1 dj that was very smooth. Got Steve to fit it too, he did a cracking job and it was hassle free for me. He said it was one of the quickest he had driven, so keen to hear his comparison on yours

I like the dj, I can live with 25mpg, 65-70mph cruising. More power would be a nice to have, but it doesn't really bother me too much. I can keep up with traffic and my fixing manuals are all correct.