2.1 DJ rebuild

Big lumps of metals and spanners.

Moderators: Moderators, User administrators

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

Finally decided that I am going to stick with a WBX after toying with Subaru or even diesel ideas. We have a VW because we've always had them and although the current engine seems reasonable we know nothing of its history and someone at some point has ground off the engine number!

We got this 2.1DJ from Dave at Futbus. I have now started to strip it down properly and here are some of the first pics. This engine was driven in to Futbus' yard with a broken head stud on number 3 so I know it was working.

Image

Image

The 3&4 head came off with the liners (this is a new phenomenon to someone who has only buit Aircooled engines before!) First question is: what is the technique for separating liners from the head? The good news is that on an initial look there are no ridges in the liners and they may not be too old as they have very clear deglazing cross hatch marks on them. As you can see the thermostat housing is fixed on with allen head bolts that are rotten and I may have to cut them off - not too much of a problem as I will be putting a Syncro housing on anyway. There is a fair amount of emulsified gunk around but there is no rust on the inside of the liners which is also encouraging

I may try to find some 2.2 pistons and liners but if these ones are OK that will be a useful back up.

Can't see much of the heads at the moment but there are no obvious cracks between the valves. In any case Dave gave me two heads that seem hardly used and these will probably get incorporated.

Below is what I saw when the head eventually came off.

Image

More gunk showing - will have to see what its like when its cleaned up. You can see the broken stud. I also have a spare DJ case which looks pretty good so I will have some decisions to make - at least the newer looking case has all its studs in place.

Got a few evenings cleaning coming up but first I'm going to finish stripping everything and then give the garage a good cleaning so that I can be confident of not getting any crud in where it shouldn't be. Also been having a very helpful PM conversation with Silverbullet that is helping me to sort out the final spec.

If anyone has any suggestions about things I should be looking for I'd be very grateful - as will be obvious this is my first go at a waterboxer. :shock:
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

mm289
Posts: 312
Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 22:00
80-90 Mem No: 9111
Location: Dover, Kent

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by mm289 »

Welcome to the rebuild club :ok

All that mayo could imply you have had water leaking into the oil or vice versa. Was the sump full of emulsion? Reason for asking is if it has been run for any distance with water in the oil you may have wear on the bearings - when(?) you split the case check the big end and crank bearings for wear.

Cross hatchings on the liners is usually a good sign as it means they aren't that worn.

First thing I would do before anything else is try and get the broken stud out, as if that won't budge you will end up using the other case anyway so no point wasting effort cleaning etc :roll:

Liners can be levered of slowly, put a wedge between liners and then against the tabs on the liners and the head. Protect the head though as you don't want to damage the sealing surfaces.

Couple of my thread for background, if you want to know about stripping/splitting case and measuring up look here
http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=80287" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you want to know about rebuild/reseal without splitting look here
http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=87097" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its all pretty straight forward if you are methodical, :D

Good luck and keep us updated,

MM
'89 Autosleeper Trident
2.1 DJ
Member 9111

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

Thanks MM - I've read your posts on WBXs which have been helpful and are bookmarked. Methodical is key!! I'm working on the basis that the bottom end is going to be much the same as an air cooled. I'll just do everything very slowly and treble check it all. :ok :ok
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

Just re read mm289's posts mentioned above - better than any Haynes or even the bible Bentley!! :ok
I've now got the head on 1&2 (right) side off and surprise, surprise - the liners came off with that as well :evil:

I used compressed air to start undoing the head nuts which were so tight that I could control it to about a 1/4 turn and so not risk distorting anything. Was pleased to see that mm289 had done the same thing. Then I was able to follow the pattern to undo them bit by bit by hand.

The cross hatching is also present on these liners so I'm hoping that's a good sign. Next job is to separate the liners from the heads which is going to be fun. If the pistons and liners are good I don't want to knacker anything.

Will take some pics when its apart although mm289 has got loads on his threads. I will take lots when I start the rebuild which is going to be from the crank outwards.

Just picked up some M12 allthread so will be able to make my gudgeon pin extracting tool tonight. Also loads of boxes so that I can keep parts together that need to be.
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

mm289
Posts: 312
Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 22:00
80-90 Mem No: 9111
Location: Dover, Kent

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by mm289 »

Sounds good, keep going :ok

I couldn't believe how much effort it took to get the liners out from the heads.

I used a crowbar between the liners first to dislodge/break the seal, then worked on the tabs. You could also try soaking in PlusGas or apply gentle heat to the head but tbh brute force was what did it for me in the end.

the real challenge is not damaging the heads, the liners are really robust but the heads are alloy. When you get the liners out, check the area around the sides of the recess in the head where the liner fits in and the area the liner mates against. Bad corrossion here is a problem as the liners may not seal properly.

Bottom end "should" be easier than most Aircooled as it is much more robust - think Type 4 versus a 1600TP- rarely have to align bore etc, just check bearing and crank - have you got a good micrometer? Also check cam whilst its all apart.

HTH

Cheers,

MM
'89 Autosleeper Trident
2.1 DJ
Member 9111

User avatar
toomanytoys
Trader
Posts: 2802
Joined: 11 Oct 2005, 18:37
80-90 Mem No: 41
Location: Boston area, South Lincolnshire

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by toomanytoys »

Stick with std pistons, re use your old ones if in good condition, they are very well made, dont bother with the currently available 2.2 ones, as they need a godd bit of work to make them worth doing.. (design flaw)
New piston and liners are available, but it seems each week the price goes up.. it wont be long before the 2.5 pistons and liners I was going to have made will look like reasonable value..
Rod bolts MUST be changed and ideally the big ends should be resized..

as said.. get the broken stud out first.. and any others with corrosion MUST be changed too..

And DO NOT ram a screwdriver into the side of the sealing rings still in the head to lever out them out.. this will scratch the sealing face and isnt an easy fix and will cause seal failure in the future.. be VERY carefull to only touch the edge of the sealing ring when removing..

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

Thanks for the pointers MM and toomanytoys.

Separating liners from heads is proving fun. :twisted: So far I have only got #1 off and that took an hour of gentle heat, Plusgas and my new best friend - the rubber mallet. :lol: So far have spent over an hour on #2 with no joy. Being very careful not to damage the sealing surface of the head and so have avoided pry bars etc. I've been relying on sort of upward glancing blows with the rubber mallet which has given me an RSI (wuss!) and worked on #1 without doing any damage.

The good news is that when I got #1 off the mating surfaces seem entirely unblemished although I have two good heads anyway courtesy of Futbus. Also the four liners all have clear cross hatching marks on them which are even all round on an initial inspection - hopefully this means they will be OK for reuse. Will they or the pistons have any markings on them that will allow me to work out their origins?

I'm working until late tonight so #2,3&4 are soaking in Plusgas prior to being attacked tomorrow when they will come off. Will let you know how it proceeds - with pics as well.

Will need to get hold of a good micrometer. I have digital vernier calipers but they clearly wont do for this. Any recommendations as to make, suppliers etc?

toomanytoys advice about the other studs is good as well - I think that I may have some problems there which means that I might be relying on my other case.

Thanks again for the advice and articles.

Pete
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

Well, I've learnt a lot over the last few days - both from other threads on here and from the stripping down of this engine.

toomanytoys advice about checking the unbroken studs was sound - here are some from the #1 / #2 side. Ouch!!
Image
Image
Image

First off I finally managed to separate the liners from the heads. Eventually it was a combination of gentle heat on the heads and gentle application of the rubber mallet that did the trick. The good news at this stage was even cross hatching all the way round...
Image

I took the number 3/4 head off with the thermostat housing still on:
Image

This is why - allen bolts heavily corroded and so can't be turned with an allen socket. Tried my best vise grips on the outside - still no joy. will probably have to cut them off. Could this be a marker of things to come?! :evil:
Image

After a bit of grief the circlips for the rear (2&4) gudgeon pins came out OK and then MM289's gudgeon pin removal tool did the trick nicely:
Image

However these are the tops of pistons 2&4 - not good :(
Image
Image

By now I'm starting to think that not much of this is going to be salvageable. However I'll crack on - hopefully the crank will be recoverable. But before I can check that out I've got to work out how to get the the circlips out nearest the flywheel - I just can't get into them.
Image
Does anyone have any advice please? Haynes talks about using a hook shaped length of wire - I don't think so :evil: Is it just a case of persisting until I finally manage to engage the circlip pliers in the right holes? Also in this picture you can see the remains of the oil control ring from #1 piston - more worrying stuff :(
Anyway I'm going to crack on with this but its already clear that I'm going to need to new pistons and liners - does anyone have a stash of NOS 94mm for 2.1 DJ?! Please PM me if so...
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

User avatar
toomanytoys
Trader
Posts: 2802
Joined: 11 Oct 2005, 18:37
80-90 Mem No: 41
Location: Boston area, South Lincolnshire

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by toomanytoys »

Unless en engine has been apart recently, there isnt much chance of the gudgeon pin coming out easy.. |They tend to shuffle a little and press the circlips, causing a small burr... this is what makes them tight..

Only need to take the circlip on the "access" hole side out.. on any pistons.. unless your tool wont pass inside them to get the pin out.. (a rawl bolt can be made into a removal tool the VW tool grips on the inside of the pin, not on the end..)

I should have said.. if you are pulling the pin the piston needs supporting in the case so as not to bend the rods...

Studs.. those in the pics prob wont do up without snapping.. and even if they do, they are on borrowed time...

Pistons.. see where the arrows are pointing on the top of the piston.. (towards flywheel or pulley) I'd guess they were in the wrong way, there is a slight offset in the pin to prevent twisting.. out of the several sets of used pistons I have, none are scuffed like that, so that would be my guess.. a light 1200 wet and dry, you could prob get away with reusing them tho.. the top edges look good..

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

Thanks again toomanytoys. The rawl bolt idea is a good one. Thats like the VW tool shown in Haynes and Bentley. The pics don't show it but I did support the piston when pulling the pin out.

Forgot to mention that the cylinder head gasket looked like this - which probably explains a thing or two...
Image

I will need to get access to a micrometer (or find someone who can do the measuring). If the pistons are within tolerances then I will do the light 1200 wet and dry trick. At the moment there is too much carbon on the piston top to see which way the arrow goes but I will check when I clean them up.

Believe me - those studs are knackered! I don't think they would take the torque again. Fortunately I have another case with good studs which I will amost certainly use.
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

toomanytoys hint about using a rawlbolt to get gudgeon pins #1 and #3 out worked well. These two pistons don't seem as scuffed as #2 and #4 but the arrows are hidden under a load of carbon. I've found some + marks and bore marks so will go back to other threads to check these out.

Got two very long days at work coming up but will be splitting the case on Friday. Hopefully the crank will be in reasonably good nick although I have a feeling the cam will be past it. Then it will be cleaning and probably more cleaning and then measuring and then pics and then lots of questions about what is salvageable and what isn't. :? :?
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

Hello again. Slow progress at present but progress nonetheless. Got every fastener off the crankcase but as with everything on here there is lots of corrosion and the bolt at the very front bottom side looks like its going to require some gentle heat - soaking in Plusgas at present though.

One question please... does anyone know what the conrod side clearance should be on a WBX? Can't find it in Haynes or Bentley. I know on an air-cooled it should be 0.10 - 0.40mm with a wear limit of 0.70mm. Does this sound about right for a WBX?

Thanks again,

Pete
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

Finally got the crankcase split :D
This is what was stopping it - the bolt that goes through at the bottom under the flywheel. Absolutely seized solid with corrosion.
Image

Eventually had to resort to lots of propane heat and my biggest drift on the nut. When there was some movement it was only on the right hand case half - this is why:
Image
Still solid in the left hand half.

Anyway this was a good sight!
Image

Closer inspection showed the cam is furbarred - e.g.
Image
Image

#1 and #3 main bearings - look like they are the originals?
Image
Image

Another question as well please. These are #1 exhaust and inlet tappets
Image
They seem to be slightly different in that there is no retaining circlip on the inlet tappet. I was able to remove all of them with a magnet before I split the case except for the #1 inlet where only the pushrod socket came out. It eventually dropped out inwards when I lifted the right hand case half. This doesn't have a circlip. Could it be an after market version?

One good bit of news is that the conrod sideways clearance, measured before anything was undone, was as follows:
#1 0.40mm
#2 0.35mm
#3 0.35mm
#4 0.40mm
Haynes says the maximum is 0.70mm so thats a good start.

Any feedback on all this would be great. Now to strip down the crank, the heads, clean everything, start a list of bits needed for the rebuild. I'm already fairly confident that I will use the good crankcase and heads that I got from Dave although the heads on this engine are looking good on an initial inspection. I feel an order to Brickwerks coming on :roll:
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

User avatar
sarran1955
Posts: 1179
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 18:51
80-90 Mem No: 6754
Location: 6, les Hauts de Sarran 19800, Sarran ,Limousin ,FRANCE

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by sarran1955 »

Hello,

Been following your thread with interest, good reporting :)

The hydraulic tappets, the right hand one is missing its spring circlippy wire and will not work. :(

These are basically CT engine blocks.

My 'tip' contribution : use tippex white pen to label everything, especially bearing shells, makes things so much easier
when you come to reassembly. :wink:

Keep struggling on, :rofl :rofl :rofl

Its a VW thing

Cordialement,

:ok
Help and advice on Aircooled engines here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/sarran1955/videos?view=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PetenAli
Posts: 603
Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 13:06
80-90 Mem No: 8569
Location: West Cornwall

Re: 2.1 DJ rebuild

Post by PetenAli »

sarran1955 wrote:Hello,

Been following your thread with interest, good reporting :)

The hydraulic tappets, the right hand one is missing its spring circlippy wire and will not work. :(

These are basically CT engine blocks.

My 'tip' contribution : use tippex white pen to label everything, especially bearing shells, makes things so much easier
when you come to reassembly. :wink:

Keep struggling on, :rofl :rofl :rofl

Its a VW thing

Cordialement,
:ok
Thanks. Thats the tappet thing sussed - wonder where the circlip's gone :?

Been stocking up on Tippex pens!! Although all the bearings are going to be replaced.
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 DJ (Courtesy of 025MOTORSPORT)

Syncronaut #171

Locked