ZDDP for flat tappet engines WBX Aircooled etc- Itchyinfo

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itchyfeet
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ZDDP for flat tappet engines WBX Aircooled etc- Itchyinfo

Post by itchyfeet »

This is a comment from FB but it's valid here.
Marco Mansi builds turbo Race WBX for Bugs and also many other performance engines and has done for many years so he knows his onions

Marco Mansi on Facebook wrote: Would just like to add some information about oil's that you use in your waterboxer, everyone has there own brand of oil that they like and weights of oil dependent on where they live and what they use there vanagons for, and I don't really have a preference but for one crucial thing. That one thing is ZDDP levels , I can not stress how important it is to add Camshield to your oil even if it says its high in ZDDP, if you want your WBX to live please take my advice.
Thanks
Marco Mansi

937carrera wrote: alternative replacement petrol VW inline 4 engines, "Golf Gti" etc, also have flat tappets and will benefit from ZDDP.

I believe that even the CS/ JX diesels benefit as they are based on the same EA827 engine design as the petrol inline fours.






Camshield Website
http://www.cam-shield.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How much to use
http://www.cam-shield.com/acatalog/How_to_use.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Camshield website wrote: Important
This product is not for use in emissions controlled vehicles with catalytic converters, irreparable damage to the catalytic converter will result.

So not in MVs with cats
This is why the levels in all modern oils have been reduced from what they were in the 80's when this engine was produced.

Camshield website wrote: Add enough Cam-shield™ premium ZDDP concentrate to get to the appropriate concentration for that application. Current API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils will have approximately 850 ppm Zinc.


Camshield website wrote: Minimum of 1200 to 1300 ppm Zinc for normal operation with moderate valve spring pressures (add ¼ ounce Cam-shield™ to each quart of engine oil)

If normal oil is 850ppm this is adding 350-450ppm to get to 1200-1300ppm ( see statement below that says it adds 800ppm per 1/4 oz)
or in metric terms
1/4 oz to 0.95L of oil
1.2 oz to 4.5Litres of oil
round up to 1/2 a 3oz bottle to each oil change on a WBX

Camshield website wrote: Approximately 2500 ppm Zinc for new cam/lifter break-in (add ½ ounce Cam-shield to each quart of engine oil, supplementing the cam lobe molybdenum break-in paste)

If normal oil is 850ppm this is adding 1650ppm to get to 2500ppm
1/2 oz to 0.95L of oil
2.4 oz to 4.5Litres of oil
round up to 1x 3oz bottle to each oil change on a WBX

Camshield website wrote: Cam-shield™ is the only product concentrated enough to allow you to treat for break-in or racing or normal operation.
1/4 ounce of Cam-shield™ per quart of engine oil adds 800 ppm Zinc
1/2 ounce of Cam-shield™ per quart adds 1600 ppm Zinc.

as we can see the numbers are not really adding up exactly

Marco says modern oils are lower and suggests more like 400ppm

This makes the figures above right for normal use and a bit low for breaking in :ok



4 us quarts = approx 3.8 litres
1 us quart =0.95 litres

Camshiled one shot Break in = 3floz .....'Designed to treat 3- 4 quarts of oil' but that's or break in!
https://www.vwheritage.com/ac1093049-ca ... l-vw-spare" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So if you are still reading :lol: in summary...

For normal oil changes 1/2 a 3oz bottle to each oil change on a WBX

For a standard rebuild 1x 3oz bottle to the first break in oil fill up on a WBX
Last edited by itchyfeet on 20 Jul 2019, 19:01, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: ZDDP for flat 4 engines, WBX and Aircooled

Post by 937carrera »

As you know Paul I was already aware about ZDDP.

It's probably worthwhile explaining that the WBX (and in line 4 engines like Golf Gti) have what is called flat tappets. Newer engines tend to have a different design incorporating rollers, which are lower friction and thus the lower levels of ZDDP in newer specification oils do not increase wear in those engines.

I would fully support the comments about the use of anti-slip products on the cam of a fresh engine rebuild, that is when the potential for greatest wear exists. I still have some anti-scuff paste from my first ever engine rebuild, many moons ago.

Here's a couple of useful related articles and links https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/0 ... t-why-how/

https://mobiloil.com/en/faq/ask-our-aut ... assic-cars

https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/classi ... rotection/

When it comes to oils etc there are often regulatory differences between countries and States (in the US). This is an example of how the changes in oil specs does not always mean the later "higher" spec is better as those later specs of oil are designed for modern engine designs. It depends on the application. The crucial change in oil specs with reduced ZDDP happened around the early 2000's and that is when the problems started to occur on older vehicles

There is I believe also an upper limit in ZDDP levels, beyond which further addition has no beneficial effect which I seem to recall is about 1400 PPM.

When it comes to disclosing the levels of ZDDP manufacturers are sometimes a little coy, and make things more complex by disclosing the zinc and phosphorous components separately. There's more complication when you chuck in mineral vs synthetic and US imperial measurements for liquids. The SAE SM spec has an upper limit of 800 PPM

Ciaraneng is going to use the Millers Pistoneeze 20W50 product (sounds a bit too Lightning McQueen for me to be honest, but it's what is in the can that is important)

Without wanting to turn this into a Millers dedication thread, they do a higher performance 20W50, a 20W60 and a nanodrive 20W50 synthetic alternative. I use some of the other nanodrive high performance product in other cars, and it is good (replacing Mobil 1 motorsport) . Brochure link here.

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/pdf/brochu ... 5_20pp.pdf

Millers are a bit coy about the actual levels of ZDDP, I have not seen a published spec, but it does appear to be "high"

A bit more grist for the mill
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Re: ZDDP for flat 4 engines WBX Aircooled - Itchyinfo

Post by 937carrera »

One more thing, you can have too much of a good thing. Excess ZDDP causes increased wear through corrosion

https://aaoil.co.uk/123579-2/

Fair disclosure - the guy that runs this is a friend of mine, I went to see if there was a UK alternative ZDDP product and see that their oil range has expanded a lot and includes engine assembly grease to protect the cams (from £1.25) and an oil analysis service to inspect the oil from your engine and wear particles within it. The latter only for nerds and professionals maybe
1981 RHD 2.0 Aircooled Leisuredrive project, CU engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine

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Re: ZDDP for flat 4 engines, WBX and Aircooled

Post by Ciaraneng »

937carrera wrote:Ciaraneng is going to use the Millers Pistoneeze 20W50 product


That oil has a stated ZDDP level of 1130ppm so I'm just shy of the 1200-1300 range recommended. I may add a drop of CamShield to make up the difference.
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Re: ZDDP for flat 4 engines, WBX and Aircooled

Post by itchyfeet »

Ciaraneng wrote: That oil has a stated ZDDP level of 1130ppm so I'm just shy of the 1200-1300 range recommended. I may add a drop of CamShield to make up the difference.

Camshield website wrote: Approximately 2500 ppm Zinc for new cam/lifter break-in (add ½ ounce Cam-shield to each quart of engine oil, supplementing the cam lobe molybdenum break-in paste)
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Re: ZDDP for flat 4 engines WBX Aircooled - Itchyinfo

Post by Ciaraneng »

Thanks Paul. I used one full 3 Oz bottle of CamShield for the break-in 500 miles. So the ZDDP level should have been in the recommended range for a new cam.

I'll get a second bottle for this and subsequent oil changes to top up the level in the Millers Oil I will be using.
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Re: ZDDP for flat 4 engines WBX Aircooled - Itchyinfo

Post by itchyfeet »

Not noticed this before says 4-6 quarts where VW heratige website says 3-4 quarts
or in language we understand this side of the pond....

1 us quart =0.95 litres
4 us quarts = approx 3.8 litres
6 us quarts = approx 5.7 litres

But this is break in strength

Image
Image
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Re: ZDDP for flat 4 engines WBX Aircooled - Itchyinfo

Post by itchyfeet »

This stuff is expensive at 20 quid a bottle

you want to get the volume right if you are doing 1/2 a 3oz bottle for a normal oil change which is 10 quid

levels of full and half are about here

Image

shine a torch down to see level

Image
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Re: ZDDP for flat 4 engines WBX Aircooled - Itchyinfo

Post by 937carrera »

Just wondering if you picked up on my earlier post that the alternative replacement petrol VW inline 4 engines, "Golf Gti" etc, also have flat tappets and will benefit from ZDDP.

I believe that even the CS/ JX diesels benefit as they are based on the same EA827 engine design as the petrol inline fours.

It might be worth including them in the title ?
1981 RHD 2.0 Aircooled Leisuredrive project, CU engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine

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Re: ZDDP for flat 4 engines WBX Aircooled - Itchyinfo

Post by itchyfeet »

937carrera wrote:Just wondering if you picked up on my earlier post that the alternative replacement petrol VW inline 4 engines, "Golf Gti" etc, also have flat tappets and will benefit from ZDDP.

I believe that even the CS/ JX diesels benefit as they are based on the same EA827 engine design as the petrol inline fours.

It might be worth including them in the title ?

Sorry not had a chance to catch up. Thanks title changed :ok
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Re: ZDDP for flat tappet engines WBX Aircooled etc- Itchyinfo

Post by kevtherev »

Just to explain to a reader what ZDDP does.
It's all about the way the tappet (camshaft follower) camshaft lobe contact faces come together that causes wear.
The lifter bottom has a flat face and the camshaft lobe slides under it.
The camshaft is "case hardened" cast steel to assist in wear reduction.
.
The ZDDP assists the slide as the action is harsh on metal and oil molecule chains, unlike a modern roller bearing camshaft follower (tappet) which rolls over the surface.
Without ZDDP assistance the wear rate increases exponentially over the life of the engine, compared to an engine using ZDDP.
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Re: ZDDP for flat tappet engines WBX Aircooled etc- Itchyinfo

Post by itchyfeet »

937carrera wrote:your 1.2 fl oz to 4.5l oil comment which aimed to get in the 1200-1300ppm range. My >>calcs are coming out at about 1700 so roughly twice the effect you assume, which are based on the half ounce / >>qt gives 1600 ppm extra on the camshield site

yes Camshields numbers are not consistent as I said

as we can see the numbers are not really adding up exactly

the above comes from their comment....

Camshield website wrote: Minimum of 1200 to 1300 ppm Zinc for normal operation with moderate valve spring pressures (add ¼ ounce Cam-shield™ to each quart of engine oil)

if 1/4 adds 800ppm per quart and oil is 850ppm to start with we are well above 1200-1300ppm and at 1650ppm

but it''s closer to 1200-1300 if you take oil to be 400ppm then we have 400base oil +800ppm with 1.2oz = 1200ppm

1.2 Oz comes from
Camshield website wrote: Minimum of 1200 to 1300 ppm -add ¼ ounce Cam-shield™ to each quart of engine oil
we have 4.5 litres so we need enough for 4.7 quarts
4.7 quarts @ 0.25oz per quart is 1.2oz

it's all us measurements or course and actually floz where just oz is stated I believe.
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Re: ZDDP for flat tappet engines WBX Aircooled etc- Itchyinfo

Post by 937carrera »

The post above from itchyfeet is in response to a PM I sent him saying this:

I have also posted an image of the excel file i made

itchyfeet wrote: as we can see the numbers are not really adding up exactly

That bit had been nagging me, and it's a right pain having to deal with US measurement methods, especially when they sell liquid products by mass, so I decided to try & get my head round it this morning.

I knocked together a spreadsheet and graph based on the Camshield website information and was intending to upload a picture of the output but am coming up with different dosing requirements /results to your commentary so thought it best to let you have a look and review.

In particular I focussed on your 1.2 fl oz to 4.5l oil comment which aimed to get in the 1200-1300ppm range. My calcs are coming out at about 1700 so roughly twice the effect you assume, which are based on the half ounce / qt gives 1600 ppm extra on the camshield site..

Hopefully the spreadsheet comes through, if not let me know and I can just email it to you. You can change the quantity in C25 and the rest of the table should flex correctly

Thoughts ???
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Re: ZDDP for flat tappet engines WBX Aircooled etc- Itchyinfo

Post by 937carrera »

and the second part of the image as it was too big to be displayed as a single file
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Re: ZDDP for flat tappet engines WBX Aircooled etc- Itchyinfo

Post by 937carrera »

Perhaps the difference is really quite simple, it all depends where you start from, there are two basic choices:

a, Camshield information which says SM spec is around 850 PPM
b, View from Marco Mansi where he has said "modern oils are lower and more like 400 PPM

As I understand things, the oil specs set a maximum level, and therefore not all oils will have that upper limit level.

There is perhaps another dynamic in the US, normally driven by California, where there is pressure to reduce Zinc / Phosphorous/ ZDDP levels even further than they have been already.

Maybe the Camshield website has been updated with dosage information for a lower ZDDP base oil and the narrative has not been updated. :?: :?:

For me, the point is that you need to know the actual level of ZDDP in the oil you are selecting as the base stock, as well as your target level, before you can decide on the dosage level, especially as too much can be harmful.

The good news is that the line on the graph pretty much moves straight up and down with changes in the base oil, 400 less to begin with 400 less at the end.
1981 RHD 2.0 Aircooled Leisuredrive project, CU engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine

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