new engine still giving me grief

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itchyfeet
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by itchyfeet »

From Ratwell
Note his use of the word assumes, not fact as with some of his other assumtions.

Below is a brand new Febi lifter from Germany. Its design is slightly modified from the original that came in 78-79 buses. Since these lifters were used throughout the Vanagon line I would assume that the original design was improved upon. The circlip on top is one such improvement: it is much more secure that the paper clip style used on the OEM lifters.
Last edited by itchyfeet on 19 Jul 2016, 05:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

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CJH wrote:I've been following this discussion with some interest, since I've also got a set of new Kolbenschmidt lifters ready to go into my engine.
Excellent another guineapig before I buy some :lol:
Thanks for the comparison pics.
Spring is different too.

could you do a close up of oil metering disc both sides please with the mating part next to it?
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by CovKid »

I'm sorry Martin, but I can't support the cutting away of spark plug shrouds. Just replace the leads. Those shrouds are there for a reason. If you've ever had listen to interference on an FM radio from a vehicle close by without them, you'll understand why. Its very antisocial - to say the least
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

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CovKid wrote:I'm sorry Martin, but I can't support the cutting away of spark plug shrouds. Just replace the leads. Those shrouds are there for a reason. If you've ever had listen to interference on an FM radio from a vehicle close by without them, you'll understand why. Its very antisocial - to say the least

This gets wheeled out regularly.
Never felt the need to do it myself and never suffered ignition problems because of them.
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by Mocki »

CovKid wrote:I'm sorry Martin, but I can't support the cutting away of spark plug shrouds. Just replace the leads. Those shrouds are there for a reason. If you've ever had listen to interference on an FM radio from a vehicle close by without them, you'll understand why. Its very antisocial - to say the least
and infact illegal..... "Directive 72/245/EEC of 20 June 1972 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to the suppression of radio interference produced by spark-ignition engines fitted to motor vehicles (3), as amended by Commission Directive 89/491/EEC (4), and in particular Article 4 thereof 'Electromagnetic compatibility' means the ability of a vehicle or component(s) or separate technical unit(s) to function satisfactorily in its electromagnetic environment without introducing intolerable electromagnetic disturbances to anything in that environment."
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

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Thank goodness for the EU! :roll:
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by CJH »

itchyfeet wrote: Excellent another guineapig before I buy some :lol:
Don't hold your breath.

itchyfeet wrote: could you do a close up of oil metering disc both sides please with the mating part next to it?
Not the easiest thing to photograph.

Here's a shot showing the disc the way it was assembled in this particular lifter:
Image

and here are a couple showing the mating face:
Image
Image

123-jn wrote: These tappets have the usual spring in the base and then the cup/piston with the ball valve in, on the top of which sits a small black washer with a broken circle pattern pressed in on both sides, one side a bigger diameter pressed pattern than the other. After this the pushrod cup goes in then the clip. When I dismantled them to charge with oil some of them had the black washer a different way up, Having looked at it it looked like it would perform the same task either way round but perhaps it is critical? Does anyone know? Most of them had the smaller horseshoe pattern facing the pushrod cup, but some it was the bigger horseshoe pattern? If there is no problem either way round then these tappets are just as ******** as the last set which were like the old vw style from heritage.

In my photos it seems like it's the bigger horseshoe facing the pushrod cup (the same as the photos in the Ratwell guide in fact).
Image
Whichever of the two horseshoes faces the cup it seems like the *other* horseshoe does nothing. The one facing the cup seems to be the one that controls oil flow between the inner cavity of the lifter and the pushrod.
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by California Dreamin »

Mocki wrote:
CovKid wrote:I'm sorry Martin, but I can't support the cutting away of spark plug shrouds. Just replace the leads. Those shrouds are there for a reason. If you've ever had listen to interference on an FM radio from a vehicle close by without them, you'll understand why. Its very antisocial - to say the least
and infact illegal..... "Directive 72/245/EEC of 20 June 1972 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to the suppression of radio interference produced by spark-ignition engines fitted to motor vehicles (3), as amended by Commission Directive 89/491/EEC (4), and in particular Article 4 thereof 'Electromagnetic compatibility' means the ability of a vehicle or component(s) or separate technical unit(s) to function satisfactorily in its electromagnetic environment without introducing intolerable electromagnetic disturbances to anything in that environment."

Ralph, interesting that you rubbish this remedy/diagnostic, based on your 35 year old plus experience of the 'Bad Old Days' when leads/rotor arms/connectors/plugs and caps were totally un-suppressed!!! :roll:

Yes...the metal shrouds only function is to reduce radio interference, but you talk as if these tin covers are 'COMPLETELY' responsible for doing this when (if you look at the system fitted to the T25) they are just one part out of several in the ignition system responsible for this function.
The fact is the rotor arm has built in suppression, the PIN connectors (lead ends) have built in suppression, the plug caps have built in suppression and this is the interesting part....the spark plugs (WR7DC)..have built in suppression. Therefore, removing the shrouds has only a minimal effect. The other important point I would make is: back in the mid 80's NONE of the spark plugs fitted at that time were suppressed but the spark plugs we use now ARE! From memory the plugs being used were W7DC or W7CCO NOT SUPPRESSED...the plugs were use now WR7DC ARE! (R stands for resistor) So removing the shrouds may increase interference but this is count acted by the resistor/suppressor built in to the plug.

Yes this subject gets rolled out regularly because the metal shrouds can be an issue in allowing the high voltage to arc to ground before reaching the spark plug.
When I was a Volkswagen/Audi (VAG) technician back in the late 80's, removing the metal shrouds was an 'OFFICIAL' recommendation (from Volkswagen UK) and came about because of the number of vehicles (not just the T3) that were turning up at main dealerships with misfires. So please don't think I've just made this up!
My recommendation has always been to use the (cutting off the metal shrouds) as a 'DIAGNOSTIC' ...as in, if the misfire vanishes AFTER the shrouds are removed you could drive 'AS IS' or as I recommend, unscrew the original caps and fit screw on NGK Caps (which have the necessary suppression) for around £12 a set...much cheaper than buying a new set of leads at £30 or £45.00 when the copper leads themselves are sound.
Illegal....lol...when you have 3 suppressors in there (with the metal shrouds removed)...its not like you are removing all the suppressors..which of course would be an issue.

I have been running with NGK plug caps on mine for the last 4 years....absolutely no radio interference to the cars audio or any TV or house radio for that matter....they DO NOT have tin shields.

Apologies to the original poster for these completely unrelated comments but when I see such miss-information being written it needed to be addressed.

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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by itchyfeet »

CJH wrote: Here's a shot showing the disc the way it was assembled in this particular lifter:
Image


Thanks
I'd say, at a guess, it does matter which way this is fitted
if it were the other way the thin edge of the plate would not be flush with the pushrod socket.
the pressed part of the disc would be taking the load and spacing the socket off the plunger.
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by CJH »

itchyfeet wrote: I'd say, at a guess, it does matter which way this is fitted

I'd say that it will perform slightly differently depending which way it is fitted. But since its function, according to Ratwell is to "bleed oil from the plunger body thru the hole in the socket, down the push rod to the rocker arms", it's not clear to me exactly what effect this would have on how fast the tappets drain down. You'd think anything that lets oil bleed out will speed up the drain down.

But then again, having looked at the way the holes in the lifter body and the internal plunger align, I'd say that drain down is inevitable, since the groove around the plunger (where the hole in the plunger sits) seems to align with the hole in the lifter body. I'll take a closer look this evening, but this seems somewhat different from the other type, where the holes don't seem to align. I'm referring to the orange coloured passages in this image from Ratwell.
Image

I guess that the lifter body rotates when the engine runs, so there's no point in trying to align the lifter so that the outer hole is pointing up. But what about the plunger - does that rotate with respect to the body? If not, is there benefit in orienting the holes 180 degrees apart, or orienting the plunger hole to point upwards?
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by itchyfeet »

this is what I mean, I may be wrong hard to be sure without one in your hands.
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by CJH »

Agreed. I'll take a closer look this evening. I think both the one on the Ratwell photo and the one I've disassembled are like your lower sketch.
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

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CJH wrote: I guess that the lifter body rotates when the engine runs, so there's no point in trying to align the lifter so that the outer hole is pointing up. But what about the plunger - does that rotate with respect to the body? If not, is there benefit in orienting the holes 180 degrees apart, or orienting the plunger hole to point upwards?

I should have read further on in the Ratwell guide. Some information here on the alignment of the oiling holes.

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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by itchyfeet »

surely its the oil in the lower cavity by the spring that holds pressure?
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Re: new engine still giving me grief

Post by CJH »

itchyfeet wrote:surely its the oil in the lower cavity by the spring that holds pressure?

Agreed - I can't see how the oil in that 'check ball cavity' (as Ratwell calls it) would ever drain down while the engine stands, because the check ball will always close the valve, but if the plunger drains out then I suppose that air could enter the check ball cavity when the inertia of the check ball opens the valve. Once there's air in that check ball cavity it's easy to see why it can take a while for it to escape, even if the plunger itself has refilled with oil.
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