Starting woes, advice sought

[ybanrab]

Hi, I'm hoping someone can give me some pointers on what to check next on my 1.9 Petrol t25, which is currently not starting.

It ran 2 weeks ago, all the way back from Latitude (120 mile trip) although it was losing a fair bit of oil (2-3 litres on the round trip). Last weekend I cleaned the engine with degreaser spray and water, top and bottom, to try to see where the oil was coming from. The plan was to run it for 10 miles and see what got oily, but after the clean, it wouldn't start. The engine turned over pretty well, but no starting. I *think* I got the odd pop, but no more. Spraying some carb cleaner into the intake provoked a quick spin, but it didn't keep going.

I found the fuel pipe into the pump was cracked and seemed to be allowing air in, so I replaced that today. The engine would spin (battery recharged since I drained quite a lot of power from it last week trying to get it to start) but no pops today.

• I tried easy-start, which has always provoked the engine into life before and didn't even get a pop.
  
• I've had the plugs out and they look to be good condition.
  
• I've turned it over with a plug out and connected and it sparks (although my dad commented that the spark looked a bit yellow?)
  
• I've turned it over with the fuel pump output pipe disconnected and it jets fuel out at a good rate
  
• I've checked the HT lead to the distributor cap and that reads 2k, which I think is ok (using a digital multimeter though, if that's important)
  
• I've pulled the vacuum hose off the intake manifold and that holds a vacuum to the distributor
  
• The batter is 3 months old and only dropped a volt or two when cranking the engine (although I can't remember exactly what it read)
  
• I've had the distributor cap off and it all looks in order, it has been replaced about a year ago
  
• I've checked the HT leads are on the right plugs

Battery is back on charge now in preparation for more fun tomorrow

I'm at a bit of a loss now. The forum and wiki have been a great resource for getting me this far, but I'm puzzled, so any advice on what to check next would be very welcome

Thanks

Barny

[bigherb]

If you have cleaned the engine check inside the distributor cap for condensation, dry it out with a tissue.

[ybanrab]

Thanks bigherb, i'll take a look this morning. The battery has had another few hours on charge, so should be in good condition.

I'll post an update on what I find

Does anyone know what resistance values I should expect on the coil?

Barny

[bigherb]

Primary should be around 0.5-0.8 ohms.
Secondary, green sticker coils 2.4k-3.5k ohms, grey sticker 6.9-8.5k ohms

[ghost123uk]

Don't use the EazyStart !! = it can cause damage on a petrol engine (and a Derv one too) plus if things are working correctly it ain't required. It should start within 10 seconds, if it doesn't, look for "why" rather than keeping cranking and risking damaging your starter, your battery and your state of mind

[ghost123uk]

BTW, seems too much of a coincidence that this problem occurred just after you washed the engine. In this hot weather, it will all have dried up I guess, except for as BH says, possiby inside the dizzy. You have sparks though, the timing cannot have moved, the only thing left is to check that fuel is getting to the carb.

[ybanrab]

Thanks for the feedback on the easy-start, I've used it a couple of times in the past when the battery has been very soft, but I keep it as a last resort.

I absolutely agree on the theory that the only factor between it working and not working was my washing down the engine, I just wish I could find what I've done to it!

I've re-tried starting it this morning (no more than about 5 seconds per try and I give it a minute between tries to cool the starter) and still no joy. When I get someone to press the accelerator I can see fuel coming through the carb, so I know it's getting that far. It's a pieberg carb if that helps.

One thing I did notice was that the ground between the ECU and the engine (brown wire, connects near the water pump) looked pretty suspect. I measured voltage between power on the coil and the bolt holding the ground and saw between 2-6 volts. I've had the bolt off and cleaned everything up, then put it back in. Now I see about 12 volts. I cannot tell whether this was due to the multi-meter finding a good contact first time around or not, but I'll see shortly. The ground wire/bolt were directly in the line of fire of my cleaning efforts, so that would at least fit with events.

I'll do the coil resistance tests now too, thanks bigherb for the values!

The plugs smelt petrol-y, so they're out to give everything a chance to dry out, then I'll try again.

[RedGus]

Don't use the EazyStart !! = it can cause damage on a petrol engine (and a Derv one too) plus if things are working correctly it ain't required. It should start within 10 seconds, if it doesn't, look for "why" rather than keeping cranking and risking damaging your starter, your battery and your state of mind

^^^ I'd second that opinion on Easy Start! Especially at this time of year, your engine (if everything's set up correctly) should start after a few spins. Easy Start is really horrible stuff - I've even heard of people getting cracked inlet manifolds when the stuff backfires.

I know you said that you checked the HT leads were in the correct place, but this can be a really common reason for a non-starter if you've had the cap and leads off. As Ghost says, your timing can't have changed (but was it correct before you started?), but have you set the HT leads up from first principles? Rotate the engine so that the timing mark lines up on the pulley, then pull the distributor cap off, check the position of the rotor arm and that's your No 1 HT lead position. Then add the others on the correct firing order and rotation.

As others have said, if nothing else has been altered, you have a spark (in the right place) and fuel delivery, the engine really has to start. If you were regularly using Easy Start before, as you suggested, that implies that there may well be an underlying problem which has been pushed over the tipping point by getting the electrics wet when you washed the engine. If you've got access to an airline, it might be worth blowing out any remaining water you can see.

Hope you get it started.

James

[ybanrab]

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! She lives!

After cleaning up the ground connection to the ECU and letting it all dry out, I put her together again and she popped a few times on the first turnover (which she hadn't done since the washing incident) and started on the second go.

I can only assume that the ecu, whilst it did spark with the plugs out, was getting very erratic power and not timing right?

I tested the coil and my primary is 1.5 ohms and the secondary is at 4.3K ohms!
So the primary is over and the secondary is between the two ranges. It's marked as a DLB403 and has a plain alloy case and white plastic around the contacts, but no colour markings that I can see. I'm going to assume that as it's been in there without issue for some years that it's ok for the moment, although I'll work out which one I need and grab myself a replacement, to be sure. I can't seem to find which coil mine would need, is it a year-based thing? I know my van in on a replacement engine, so that may have a bearing also.

Thanks so much ghost123 and bigherb for your suggestions and help, it's lovely that there are people out there willing to help get me back on the road.

Barny

[bigherb]

I tested the coil and my primary is 1.5 ohms and the secondary is at 4.3K ohms!
So the primary is over and the secondary is between the two ranges. It's marked as a DLB403 and has a plain alloy case and
Barny

Someone has fitted a replacement Lucas coil at some which is meant for cars with points ignition and a ballast resistor. It will work but you won't get the full power out of the electronic ignition system.

[ghost123uk]

Hi Barny,

When you say =

I'll work out which one I need and grab myself a replacement, to be sure. I can't seem to find which coil mine would need, is it a year-based thing? I know my van in on a replacement engine, so that may have a bearing also.

[bold by me] - I have been trying to figure this out since I first got into T25s 12 years ago. I (we) "need" to know because as you say, so many of our vans have parts from differing years fitted. I would love to know what part dictates what coil (blue or grey). I don't think it's the ignition amp (correct term for what you are calling an ECU btw). Someone might know..........

[ybanrab]

I'm glad it's not just me who couldn't find which coil is right! I'll do some more research and see if I can find anything.

Barny

P.S. I see from your sigs that you're both bikers! Me too, although my 1999 CB400 is nowhere near as classic as your rides!

[bigherb]

Green sticker coils fit everything with electronic ignition. Grey sticker higher output coils where fitted to later engines that used the long life two/thee electode spark plugs. If you only use standard single electrode plugs green sticker will do. Doesn't apply to aircoolers they used a different coil.

[ghost123uk]

So can you use the higher output Grey sticker coil where a Green sticker coil had been ? (logic tells me yes ?)

[bigherb]

So can you use the higher output Grey sticker coil where a Green sticker coil had been ? (logic tells me yes ?)

Yes, but you won't get any benefit.