Club 80-90 Forums

Morning all, hope you all had a good weekend.

Just wanted to share with you a word of warning to all having just had this happen to me on Friday night, and having researched it, it seems to be ticking timebomb for us all with T2, T25/3 & T4 vehicles. This may be already knowledge to you all, but to me, just starting out with the T25, it was a scare.

We were heading upto Delamont for the weekend in Bert on Friday evening.... Bert spotless, and loaded to the gills with everything for the weekend; came to the hill at the end of the motorway, began to brake for the tight bend and traffic lights.... and the brake pedal went to the floor. Talk about a brown pants moment. Vigorous pumping of the pedal got us eventually stopped.

Nursed it round the corner and into a side street, removed the dash binnacle to check the brake fluid level ( reservoir full ). On pumping the pedal vigorously again, the brake pedal returned, though leaving it for any time allowed the pedal to loose pressure and go straight to the floor again. Drove very slowly and carefully home, constantly pumping the brake pedal with my left foot to keep braking pressure there.

Turns out this is a common issue... where the seals fail in the master cylinder; no signs of failing, no progressively worse pedal, no leaks etc.... they just go!!!!

So, about to take it apart and work out which master cylinder i need ( im presuming there is more than one for dual braking servo assist ? )

This seems to be a failure point in T4's which have just had brake work done and pedals pumped hard for bleeding of brakes.

Anyways, after what happened, im inclined to replace everything, as its the scariest thing having brake failure like that... im only thankful it was in the evening and there was little traffic about, or i dread to think what could have happened to both our legs in a frontal impact, and Bert!

So my campervan baptism of fire continues!!!!! lol

This a t4 your on about?
If it is I would suggest you post it on their forum.
brake failure is not a "common issue" on t25s as far as I know. Thats plain mis-information.
Besides all that... thats what your mechanical brake is for

Exactly this scenario when your hydraulic system fails..

kevtherev wrote:This a t4 your on about?

No, My T25 Jurgens, and please note the topic title!!!

kevtherev wrote:If it is I would suggest you post it on their forum.

Found it also on their forums when researching it

kevtherev wrote:brake failure is not a "common issue" on t25s as far as I know. Thats plain mis-information.
Besides all that... thats what your mechanical brake is for

"As far as you know".... i didnt think it either till i have been researching it this weekend, and various web searches have found examples of this happening on various models around the world, plus 3 peeps i have spoken to here have gone "ah, that happened to me once" so maybe more common as you think before you shoot me down the way you did.

kevtherev wrote:Exactly this scenario when your hydraulic system fails..

Obvious! Though try be so blase about it when your trying to stop from 50mph downhill with sudden brake loss with cars stopped in front of you!

I apologies for coming on here and sharing my experience and trying to warn others of this if this is the attitude in met with... i would hate for anyone to be injured through lack of knowledge on this issue.

Common is a lot more than 10 in 10 000.
I didnt shoot you down.. Just being pragmatic

Yes its known in the motor trade that the seal can flip in older master cylinders BUT IT IS VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY RARE! (did i make very clear enough?)


There are people on here that reading your post (after putting down there daily mail) will run off and buy brand new parts when there is no need to! If you loose your brakes then the handbrake is there for that reason hence its mechanical and not fluid!



STOP SCAREMONGERING!

I will have you know I read the daily Mail online...(certainly wouldn't pay for it!!)....

... sorry i bothered.....

you know, several peeps recommended this site to me, and on other sites i have been on regarding this matter, actual mature and grown up conversation about the topic has been had, with advice, technical knowledge and discussion on personal experiences of the same happening to others.

Not that any of you will be bothered, but if this is the way you welcome and speak to new members whom only post items such as this to try and be helpful, then i wont bother logging on again... I have been a respected part of the VW community for 16 years now ( writing for some of the VW magazines you have sitting about your house ) so i kindof know what im talking about.... and if you call not wanting any of your other fellow dubbers not to experiance the same, risk killing someone or damaging your pride and joy, and you find it such a laughing matter!

And for those whom think this topic isnt important, there are many things like this floating about the car trade.... i could write a book on what i saw in 16 years in the trade; take a look into the history of the world famous Mercedes 190E, probably the best made car in the world and famous for its over engineering...where, in the same case as these vw master cylinder failure across the models ( also known in older landrovers; larger vehicles under larger braking load through smaller parts designed originally for smaller cars... not commercial ), 190E front ball joints are known to fail at various times... thus, most owners dont think twice of changing the balljoints every other MOT for peace of mind; a saturday afternoon, a £40 master cylinder and a bit of thought on a matter such as this doesnt really break any new ground in common sense... especially when i can almost guarantee at least 60% of our busses we are driving about are probably still running the original master cylinders they left the factory with... thus, a reason why they can fail.... out of site, out of mind.

But what would i know, or why should i care!

SiVWW wrote:... sorry i bothered.....

you know, several peeps recommended this site to me, and on other sites i have been on regarding this matter, actual mature and grown up conversation about the topic has been had, with advice, technical knowledge and discussion on personal experiences of the same happening to others.

Not that any of you will be bothered, but if this is the way you welcome and speak to new members whom only post items such as this to try and be helpful, then i wont bother logging on again... I have been a respected part of the VW community for 16 years now ( writing for some of the VW magazines you have sitting about your house ) so i kindof know what im talking about.... and if you call not wanting any of your other fellow dubbers not to experiance the same, risk killing someone or damaging your pride and joy, and you find it such a laughing matter!

And for those whom think this topic isnt important, there are many things like this floating about the car trade.... i could write a book on what i saw in 16 years in the trade; take a look into the history of the world famous Mercedes 190E, probably the best made car in the world and famous for its over engineering...where, in the same case as these vw master cylinder failure across the models ( also known in older landrovers; larger vehicles under larger braking load through smaller parts designed originally for smaller cars... not commercial ), 190E front ball joints are known to fail at various times... thus, most owners dont think twice of changing the balljoints every other MOT for peace of mind; a saturday afternoon, a £40 master cylinder and a bit of thought on a matter such as this doesnt really break any new ground in common sense... especially when i can almost guarantee at least 60% of our busses we are driving about are probably still running the original master cylinders they left the factory with... thus, a reason why they can fail.... out of site, out of mind.

But what would i know, or why should i care!

re read your original post! you telling people that if you dont change your master cylinder you will crash, thats scaremongering!

Oh, and i'll take ya 16 years in the trade and raise you a good few more, I have worked on everything from the smallest of small cars to 110+ tonne tank transporters and seen only one failure of a master cylinder in all my time! oh and most weren't even as young as our vans! So pick ya teddy up out the corner and carry on!



oh and also

if this is the way you welcome and speak to new members

Most new members have the decency to introduce them selves just searched you posts and couldn't find on so before you have a go about manners etc have a look in the mirror!

And here is me getting dragged into petty, pathetic arguement..... please note the following...

1. Not once did i say "you are going to crash". Barely i said a word of warning to what happened to me, and spare a thought for tired and worn brake master cylinders.

2. I will not insult you by remarking on anything you experienced in you years working in the trade, as we all share individual experience and cannot comment on what someone else has, or hasn't came across in their time. We could probably sit for hours sharing knowledge and tell horror stories of the car and commercial trade...

3. I did introduce myself ( if you note, this is my 10th post... all i can find in searches are my posts in this thread. However, the fact my post count reads more than in this thread proves i said hello, shared with you what i drive, chatted with a few and also, i started a thread asking who all on here is from Northern Ireland.... which no one replied to. I have been looking for 10 mins now and cannot find either??? They were posted in the General section whether they have been removed by admin for being in a wrong place?

Anyways, I am not going to argue with you, or attempt to individually insult you as you have me, just stating above fact. Thankyou.

NB, I would like to hear site admin opinion on how my initial post on this has deserved the above responses and attacks... pretty pathetic tbh... anyways, i have no more time to waste pointlessly defending myself, as i say, just sharing experiance, and with my best will possible, i hope nothing the same happens to anyone else, which is why i pointed it out....

Happy dubbing everyone Over and out.

Come on guys.The op posted with the best of intentions.The reply's to him are,shall we say a bit sharp.This post will not look very good to any newbies reading it.And could well frighten them off.This has always been a friendly forum(well nearly always) Lets keep it that way.SiVWW dont be put off contributing to our forum because of this.Treat it as a baptism of fire.We are a pretty friendly bunch really.But it does not come across that way at times.....Carry on

I'm sorry Rob but this stuff...

it seems to be ticking timebomb for us all with T2, T25/3 & T4

Turns out this is a common issue...where the seals fail in the master cylinder..

no signs of failing,

i dread to think what could have happened to both our legs in a frontal impact,

...was said without substance and fact, in my opinion it's plain scaremongering... and not just "sharing" information.
Mis-information is as bad as no information.

I'm fine with him telling his tale and I would certainly think it was shocking should brake failure happen.
No worse than the engine fires through neglected fuel lines, equally shocking.

ok guys all chill out.

if you have recently had your brakes bled or similar work done then this issue can arrise as you suggested happens on t4`s. this problem is common to all older vehicles and is down to the fact the seals in the master travel in to a " dirty part " of the master cylinder bore that they have not swept clean possibly from the day they were new. this damages them and in extream cases can cause the flip of the seal as mentioned.

never bleed your brakes by pumping the pedal to the floor on an older vehicle. it is common and it caused more often by lack of awareness rather than the defect itself.

we appriecate the heads up on problems but bear in mind there are folks on here who are truly experts on these vehicles and whilst is better to mention something that could help others than not. it needs to be done in a non condecending way.

no offence meant or intended.

lee.

Hi all,

Just going to put my tuppence in here....


I had a similar experience in my MK1 3.0 Capri two years ago. I had just replaced the leaking master cylinder with a New old stock one (autojumble) and a few weeks later experienced a similar foot to the floor no brakes, brown underpants, life flashing before my eyes experience that was described above before vigourous pumping of the pedal got me to a standstill just in time.... It was very frightning and made me realise just how much momentum and weight there is in a vehicle. I totally lost confidence in the car for a while.

A mechanic told me that it could have been the "nos" cylinder or me pumping the new cylinder hard to circulate the new brake fluid. He always recommended using a pressure bleed system particularly on older vehicles.

My point is that I don't think the T25 is any more likely to fail than any other vehicle and what we have to do is realise that we have vehicles that are the best part of 30 years old and must take this into account.

The experience has taught me to be be very, very careful when working with braking systems.

regards all,

Paul.

I had it happen on a Bedford CF I once owned and nearly got killed along with the band of musicians I had in the back.
And guess what, I had just fitted new cylinders on the back and bled the brakes !!
I did not know (though I had a suspicion) about the seals getting damaged by moving into the dirty / unused area of the master cylinder bore.

Thanks to Si I will be doing careful checks etc next time I have bled the brakes on any car.

These T25 vans are all 25+ years old and so I reckon this IS something to consider, especially as the consequences are so dire.
I mean we all make a fuss about rotted fuel hoses and gas pipes on T25's and don't glibly say "well you carry a fire extinguisher don't you". (re the handbrake comments)

Si, OK it may not be a "common issue" but it is common enough for us to take note.
I thank you for your input

Best regards

John

I can see both sides of the arguement here, however, it wouldn't have occurred to me not to pump brake lever to the floor when bleeding. So to me, this is a good thread. Thanks, when I do my brakes, I'll know what NOT to do.