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Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 22 Oct 2010, 17:45
by Bert2
Hi

I have just started to use my 1.6D for the first time after taking 2 years to do it up. I know its slow but I'm getting used to that, its max speed on the flat is 60mph and up a hill it can drop to around 40mph, what I have noticed is that at certain revs the engine seem to hunt slightly, I have a new air filter, new fuel filter fitted and the air suction has been checked clear. does anyone have any ideas?

cheers :?:

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 22 Oct 2010, 22:09
by pocolow
Mine does the same and has for two years, something to do with the diesel injector pump. Never got round to sorting it yet :roll: .

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 22 Oct 2010, 22:32
by HarryMann
By hunt do you mean vary its torque rhythmically. (under load or idling do you mean)

Or do you mean shuttle & shunt when under no load, neutral throttle

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 23 Oct 2010, 15:11
by Bert2
when you hold the throttle in a certain position under load there is a rhythmic change in torque its not causing a problem but just wondered if anyone had the same problem? The engine starts fine first time every time and is fine and steady flat out its just mid range there is a slight problem.

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 23 Oct 2010, 16:41
by Plasticman
Oh how I love this dirty talk, "flat out" and "mid range" how I dream, we are talking 1.6na arent we?
mike :rollin

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 23 Oct 2010, 16:47
by HarryMann
Right theres two different ways an engine can do that...

Particularly in petrols they are both caused by opposites, true hunting by weakness and rhythmic rise and fall by richness

Hunting due to weakness, is splashy and more irregular, rhythmic rise & fall is due to richness

Hunting due to weakness tends to be much longer cycle, slowing down, picking up speed unti engine decides theres not enough fuel to maintain it, and then almost completely dying before deciding it now has enough mixture to make a go of it... :wink:

===

Diesels often characteristically rhythmically idle, that is due to a hint of richness on no load, big lorry engines used to do it a lot, Brrrm , Brrmmm. Brmmm, brmm, brmmm :lol:

If that's like it, that will be too rich off load... !

very regularly in a short cycle, maybe a second or two, less than 1 Hertz.

Long drawn out rises and falls, with an uncertainty about them is true 'hunting' and weakness
(that is - it appears to be hunting for something, unhappy with its life, and it is... looking for enough fuel :wink: )

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 23 Oct 2010, 16:55
by Plasticman
Long drawn out, that sounds like me when Im hungry,
not sure about the 'Brrmmm, I think it always has just the one 'r' and its the number of 'm's that determine mixture but I will stand to be corrected ofcourse
Mike

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 23 Oct 2010, 17:20
by colinthefox
Mine used to do it if the throttle was pushed too hard at very low revs. The remedy was to back off the throttle a bit, or change down a gear.

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 23 Oct 2010, 18:20
by Bert2
Thanks for the words of wisdom :ok

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 24 Oct 2010, 00:17
by HarryMann
Ok Mick8y, a vroum, vroum, vroum ? Might even be called a chug if slow

So which is it yours does Bert?

Is it a hanging back and then quick catchup.

Diesels are a bit prone to fuelling and throttle dependency - the quantities of fuel being injected are often so minute, and the way the charge is ignited and burns all being so dependent on spray pattern and timing, its perhaps not always what to do :wink:
The mechanical injection pump is a real marvel of modern engineering, that gives such good control over the engine's whole operating range can be taken for granted.
The slightest thing wrong though, the minutest leak or air bubble in an injector pipe, slight wear in the pump, can sometimes make an engine a different beast. Magic they work at all...

================================

Here's an out-take from a Sir Harry Ricardo lecture that reflects on that magic:

Let us imagine ourselves inside the cylinder of a Diesel engine, seated confortably on the top of the piston, at or about the end of the compression stroke. We are in complete darkness, the atmosphere is a trifle oppressive, for the shade temperature is well over 500C, and the atmosphere is very dense. Also it is very draughty, such that in reality we would be blown off our perch and hurled about like autumn leaves in a gale.
Suddenly, above our heads a valve is opened and a rainstorm of fuel begins to descend. In fact, the velocity of droplets approaches much more nearly that of rifle bullets than of raindrops! For a while nothing startling happens, the rain continues to fall, the darkness remains intense. Then suddenly, away to our right a brilliant gleam of light appears, moving swiftly and purposefully; in an instant, this is followed by a myriad others all around us, some large and some small, until on all sides of us the space is filled with with a merry blaze of moving lights; from time to time the smaller lights wink and go out while the larger ones develop fiery tails like comets; occasionally these strike the walls of the cylinder but being surrounded with an envelope of burning vapour they merely bounce off like drops of water spilt on a red hot plate.
Right overhead all is darkness still, the rainstorm continues and the heat is becoming intense; now we shall see that a change is taking place. Many of the smaller lights around us have gone out, but new ones are beginning to appear, more overhead, and to form themselves into definite streams shooting rapidly downwards or outwards from the direction of the injector nozzles. Looking around again, we see that the lights around are growing yellower; they no longer move in definite directions but appear to be drifting listlessly hither and thither; here and there they are crowding together on dense nebulae and these are burning now with a sickly smoky flame, half suffocated for want of oxygen.
Now we are attracted by a dazzle overhead, and looking up, we see that what at first was a cold rain falling through utter darkness has given place to a cascade of fire as from a rocket. For a little while this continues, then ceases abruptly as the fuel valve closes. Above and all around us are still some lingering fireballs, now trailing long trails of sparks and smoke and wandering aimlessly in search of the last dregs of oxygen which will consume them finally and set their souls at rest.

So ends the scene, or rather my conception of the scene, and I will ask you to realise that what has taken me nearly five minutes to describe may all be enacted in one five-hundredth of a second, or even less.

Sir Harry Ricardo lecturing to the Royal Society, 23 November 1931

(76 years ago tonight)

===========================================================

(posted in Syncro 23rd Nov, 2007) so will be 79 years very soon... the father of the high-speed diesel engine some would say, as well as father of many others. Today the firm still carrying his name remains at the forefront of research, development and dissemination of knowledge to the World's engine and motor manufacturers, as it was back then. He made significant contributions to both WW 1 (the engine for the first British tanks) and WW II (a list would be too long here).

If you run a VW TD diesel, then Sir Harry's genius is alive in your cylinder head, its Indirect Injection Pre-chamber was developed at Shoreham-on-Sea, during the mid 30's (patented as Comet). Ricardos are still there, at Shoreham.

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 24 Oct 2010, 11:33
by Oldiebut goodie
Some more history for you:
Image

Taken from vw's 4 cylinder diesel 1977-83 ProTraining book.It's full of gems like this.
Image

Image
Image

Re: Any Ideas engine hunt

Posted: 24 Oct 2010, 11:51
by HarryMann
Thats all good stuff on diagnosis OBIE :ok well worth checking through those items
(though have seen that potted diesel history before, and Merc always claim that first production diesel car, whereas seen it said the Citreon was first to be sold, with a Ricardo designed diesel engine. His original vehicle donated by Citreon is still at Shoreham IIRC )

Unfortunately our Govt's taxation rules prevented cars with modern high-speed diesels being adopted for 25 years, setting back what Ricardo had done and our lead an equivalent amount.. now we're nowhere :)

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If your 1.6 NA has the retrun flow clip-on filter design, then that is often responsible for air in the fuel.
Anything marginal, maybe even a injector pipe stabilising strap missing, can give different running symptons. Definitely check for the pump being rigid and nipped up tight, and even the tiniest leak.
Worn or burnt away glow plugs also affect the injection pattern, they're an integral part of the pre-chamber spray pattern, just by being there, regardless of them being on (they heat the incoming spray)