Club 80-90 Forums

just got the dreaded call from the garage, regarding water loss in 2.1l SS WBX. Since about 2 weeks now, ive had to top up twice from head tank being half full.

I would just like to clear some things up:

He said that he could see that there is coolant being lost and mentioned the head gasket (This was all in German, so getting my head around mechanical German). How would he see this? You can see on the block where the water has been leaking out?

He also mentioned that he couldnt do an MOT while the engine is like this? Of course German and English MOTs are probably different, but how is it in the UK? Would a leaking head gasket effect emmissions? Why would he not do that, principles?

So he roughly said, changing head gaskets, 500 euros per side. Can only 1 be changed, or is it generally good practice to change both at same time (replace 1 only and then blow the other side out due to upped compression)? But theoretically I could change 1 only?

So as long its not pissing water out, i can still drive this carefully, and keep topping up? Was recently in a traffic jam on a hot day, and the fan was coming on and off and temp needle was moving right.

If im dropping a grand on the engine just to change the head gaskets, mights as well go whole hog and recondition it, or replace it?

Thanks, Rich

If it's a waterjacket seal you can see where the coolant drips from and possibly where it's run round. The rest is dependant on what funds you have available, but if they won't test it with it leaking (enviromental issues) you need to get it fixed.

Ian.

Epiphone wrote:
He said that he could see that there is coolant being lost and mentioned the head gasket (This was all in German, so getting my head around mechanical German). How would he see this? You can see on the block where the water has been leaking out?

This is likely the head to crankcase seal that has failed, but a confirmation of this should be got as it MAY turn out to be dripping there from somewhere else and therefore MIGHT be less serious.

Epiphone wrote: He also mentioned that he couldnt do an MOT while the engine is like this? Of course German and English MOTs are probably different, but how is it in the UK? Would a leaking head gasket effect emmissions? Why would he not do that, principles?

It won't affect emissions, but cannot comment on whether a UK tester might take a dislike to it

Epiphone wrote: So he roughly said, changing head gaskets, 500 euros per side. Can only 1 be changed, or is it generally good practice to change both at same time (replace 1 only and then blow the other side out due to upped compression)? But theoretically I could change 1 only?

You cannot "guess" at a cost for this job because 100 things can and often do go wrong.
It would be mad to do just 1 side as the other is likely in poor nick also.
Keep reading

Ian Hulley, on another thread says =

Ian Hulley wrote:I don't know how anyone could give a fair 'fixed price' for doing a head gasket (I assume it's either a 1.9 or 2.1 watercooled ?) because it's a can of worms, anything could possibly snap ... head studs, exhaust studs, coolant flange studs ... and turn horrible and end in tears OR everything may have been apart more recently (although it certainly doesn't sound like it) and it may go swimmingly. Impossible to say and therefore accurately predict a cost.

Ian

I said "Ian is right"

Epiphone wrote:So as long its not pissing water out, i can still drive this carefully, and keep topping up?

Risky but you could if you keep an eye on it.

Epiphone wrote:Was recently in a traffic jam on a hot day, and the fan was coming on and off and temp needle was moving right.

That is normal.

Epiphone wrote: If im dropping a grand on the engine just to change the head gaskets, mights as well go whole hog and recondition it, or replace it?

Simple answer is YES = go for an Elite recon for the same money !!
It comes with a guarantee as well

There is another thread currently running re the same thing and I said this =
"Read this post (it's a bit long) it is a good example of what you are looking at if you attempt to repair this" =
https://club8090.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52374" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A can of Kseal ( note = Kseal, not any other sealant ) might effect a temporary cure - others have used it for this and it can work for a while.

For 1K you can get a full recon engine from Elite WITH a guarantee

They are in Basildon - website = http://www.elitevw.co.uk/products.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They have a good reputation for their work, but apparently are very busy, so your van might be a couple of weeks away getting done, but well worth it I would say.

p.s. - A head gasket job on the flat 4 engine often ends up as needing another engine anyway.
Simon Baxter of "Brickwerks VW" often states this, and he is recognised as one of the most experienced VW mechanics around.

So this probably stems from an air lock and subsequent over heating, as I did have a water pipe burst during the winter.

So if its a waterjacket seal or crankcase seal, temporary solution is to use Kseal. Should the water be dropped to, to definitely ensure there is no air lock?

My preferred option is to wait a month at least, whilst inbetween using the bus.

What are dangers, if I continue to use the bus? the seal fails completely and water gets into the engine? righting off the engine?

Epiphone wrote:So this probably stems from an air lock and subsequent over heating, as I did have a water pipe burst during the winter.

Possibly yes.

From that "long post" see this =

KarlT wrote:Also more thoughts...........
Cleaned out the bleed pipes from top of engine. This was in one............



While the other was blocked by plastic, the T' junction mold hadn't been cleaned out properly, Had to drill it out. I'm sure the pressure build-up is what eventually caused the seals to go.

Go & check your bleed pipes, Just disconnect from engine & check that coolant can run out. If it can't look further.

I too had exactly the same type of blockage in 2 places in the thin pipes that run around the lip of the engine bay, and also in the thin part of the runbber one that comes from the rear of the left hand head, and goes to the afore mentioned metal pipe.

Epiphone wrote:So if its a waterjacket seal or crankcase seal, temporary solution is to use Kseal. Should the water be dropped too, to definitely ensure there is no air lock?

If the water is clean looking, I would bleed the system to be on the safe side, (do you know how to do this correctly ?) drop just enough water to allow to be able to fit the Kseal in the header tank (NOT the one behind the number plate, the other one) then top up and straight away go for a 10 mile drive to get it all mixed through the (big) water system.

Epiphone wrote:What are dangers, if I continue to use the bus? the seal fails completely and water gets into the engine? righting off the engine?

No, the danger is running low on water and getting a big airlock in a head, causing it to overheat and crack or warp.
A good guide is to keep your heater on and monitor it's output with your left knee ! - If it ever runs cold, you have an airlock. Also remember that a temp gauge that suddenly goes low is as bad, well in fact worse than one that has gone high, as it means the sender unit is no longer immersed in water (because it has all gone )

Check all those thinner water pipes in the engine bay for blockages

Hi, so the garage took some photo's, which is quite nice of them.

Cant really see much here

Woopsie, that looks like both side waterjacket seals have gone. Pants down time I fear

How can you see that both have gone, just by amount of coolant?

Will be going to the garage on Friday, and will see the extent of the leak and IF it can still be driven (ensuring that I keep an eye on the water levels etc)

The mechanic clarified why he doesnt want to do the MOT, cos to test the emmissions they will really thrape the "pooh" out of it, and get it nice and hot. So of course with a coolant problem, this could damage the engine.

Probably the engine has already been damaged due to aforementioned air lock and over heating, also ties in to Spark plug problem I had. Probably that head at least, over heated and expanded, pushing out spark plug, damaging the gasket and possibly warping the head.

As the mechanic has the bus to do major welding, Ive asked him to at least make it drivable on Friday, and then over the weekend I can have a look at engine problem. Will look at Kseal etc and also look at if the problem gets better or worse when the engine is hotter. Its true that at the moment its leaking under no pressue, but have been told that sometimes a hotter engine will expand in the right place and plug a leak.

Also correct me if im wrong, need to see if the collant is bubbling up etc, which means that the compressions gases are getting into coolant, and pushing out through the header tank, if this is not happening yet, this is a good sign right? Would this be the next stage of a partial gasket failure?

and difference between head gasket and water jacket seal?

Epiphone wrote:
Also correct me if im wrong, need to see if the collant is bubbling up etc, which means that the compressions gases are getting into coolant, and pushing out through the header tank, if this is not happening yet, this is a good sign right? Would this be the next stage of a partial gasket failure?

and difference between head gasket and water jacket seal?

No bubbling up is a different failure = head gasket
The head gasket on these is 4 simple rings that sit on top of each liner and mate up against the head.

The water jacket seal is the big, complicated shaped rubber thing between the head and the crankcase, you can see it on the outside of the engine. (note = if you look at that thread again that I linked to, you will see a picture of his broken seal.

or see here =



5 = seal
4 = head gasket

You have drips from both sides of the engine .... if this was taken after the van was parked level for any length of time it shows both sides have a leak, not just one.

hi fella , had to put an answer on as your first question was on on of my posts. hope to be of some help. i think ian is correct and possibly losing coolant from both heads. lots of other info there to, these guys have been running these wbx,s for longer than most on here, some of us love them and think they are worth keeping in our beloved campers. a wbx is a pain to strip but not that bad to rebuild, you will need a few tools to get the gudgeon pins out and also guide the rods back into the pistons. from my experience(i am not a guru) these engines do not suffer from piston wear or crank wear. the stretch bolts do fail and can be replaced with non stretch bolts from a type one engine same as the early dg. the coolant loss is that the outer gasket has failed, now i think this is because the heads corrode and distort the gasket, also the case will have suffered corrosion. i would recomend you strip the motor and asses it, if you want i can pm you some pics of homemade tools to do it. refresh it with new gaskets and enjoy. hope this some help.

had the Bus over the weekend, I changed the coolant water, as wanted to flush the system out and make sure I bled it correctly (this time at least using the engine and radiator bleeds at time of filling)

But my temperature indicator has never worked the way it did before the water pipe burst in January?

After turning the ignitions/engine on, should it go to halfway and then obviously up or down depending on temp?

Mine just stays down (cold) and then gradually moves up. once it gets about 3/4 when ive had it running stationary for a while, the fan comes on etc and moves down. But on motorway with the air passing over the radiator, it stays below middle.

Epiphone wrote:
After turning the ignitions/engine on, should it go to halfway and then obviously up or down depending on temp?

No it should start off fully "cold" ie at the left side, then as the van warms up it should go somewhere near the middle, say after 15 minutes of normal driving.

Epiphone wrote:Mine just stays down (cold) and then gradually moves up. once it gets about 3/4 when ive had it running stationary for a while, the fan comes on etc and moves down. But on motorway with the air passing over the radiator, it stays below middle.

Sounds about right then

During 'normal' running it should be sitting around the light in the center, 3/4 for the fan is about right, the 1st fan may already be on but you can't hear it

Ian