Club 80-90 Forums

.... and it worries me. There seems to be a lot of people on here who seem to put 'cool' before basic safety. This is particularly apparent when discussing wheels / tyres / brakes / steering / suspension. There also seems to be a lot of people willing to offer up unqualified advice to the novice on various subjects.
Am I the only one who thinks this?
Am I just an old fart?
Shall I go an lie by the pool instead?

Well Paddy
I must de an old fart aswell .Didnt think my age was that old though.
.

.......... I am not a lone voice. Thanks Russell

can you be a little more specific?

Ive just been reading all the information and cant see much of a problem with all the advice given?

To be honest, I'm looking at lowering my caravelle and upgrading the brakes and suspension, and fitting alternative wheels to improve the safety and handling.

What advice do you have a problem with?
Ive been modifying cars of all types for over 30 years, and the suspension modifications Ive been reading about on here are pretty much bread and butter tuning principles. Certainly a lot safer than cortinas with chopped springs and bandits.

I may be old, but I dont have to act it!

Advice is all it is. Surely people can make up there own minds on whether they act upon it or not?

Advice is good if its soundly based and carried out with due dilligence and competence. If you have to ask some of the questions I've seen then you shouldn't be doing the work yourself.
I recently came across a Westy on the side of the road, sidelined by an electrical fault. The guy who owned it didnt know one end of a spanner from the other but did all the wiring himself 'helped' by people on a web site - not this one thankfully - and he made a complete mess of it and as a result had a smouldering camper.
While chatting to the young lad, he was telling me about the work on the brakes he had done just recently. His quote was ' you only have to pump 'em twice now and steer to the left and she stops great'. He also lowered the camper by fitting cut down Cavilier springs!
Why would anyone want to lower a van and fit tyres that shorten the legs on it? They are slow enough as they are and handle fine as they are and more importantly they are designed that way. Im all for fitting a SA Brake Kit and slightly larger wheels (15"x7" on 205/65/15) and having owned 5 T25 vans, I recon thats all you need to do. Oh yeah, get power steering and make life easier for yourself.
Rant over

syncropaddy wrote: Why would anyone want to lower a van and fit tyres that shorten the legs on it? They are slow enough as they are and handle fine as they are and more importantly they are designed that way.

oh god. thats just intolerance. Just because you dont understand it doesnt mean its wrong does it?

Is your problem with bad advice? or just people doing things you dont understand?

Live and let live.

I think Orsmby understands as well as anyone, if not better, just doesn't think these are all particularly necessary or wise...

Maybe the word 'fad' might have a resonance here.. and be roughly what he is getting at.

hmmm maybe.

I would disagree with the term "fad" though, that would suggest something that would go out of fashion in a short time. The simple fact is that by lowering the ride height of a car, or any wehicle, you lower its centre of gravity, and improve its handling. By fitting stiffer or ideally adjustable damping you reduce body roll and improve response.
Larger lower profile wheels and tyres inprove steering response, and reduce flex in the sidewall of tyres.
I will be fitting 17" wheels with 225/45/17 tyres. these are within 40mm of the rolling radius of the original wheels and tyres.
All of these modifications have been around since people became enthusiastic about the vehicles they drive. If thats a fad, then its a very long lived fad!

As an outsider, this "rant" appears to have ground in the fact that the original poster has a vehicle that would not respond to these modifications. Horses for courses. Im sure a 4wd T25 is a great machine, but i'm not interested in offroading. That doesnt mean I would question someone elses right to do what they like with theirs. Like I say, live and let live.


I think I'll just stick to doing what I like to my cars, ask advice when its needed, and use that advice in conjunction with other information available, and most importantly, my own common sense. Which is what Ive been doing since I modified my first car 30 years ago. Im sure there are those that didnt appove of that at the time, I just hope that their intolerance didnt prevent them enjoying their own vehicles.

If someone asked for advice on wiring their own vehicle, used that advice, and made an a*** of it to the extent mentioned, how can you be sure that it was the advice that was at fault, and not the abilities of the person asking the advice.

by the way, when i said "understand" I didnt mean didnt understand the principles, rather didnt understand why anyone would want to do it...

as in "why would anyone want to lower a van..."

I dont want to suggest anyone is lacking in mechanical knowledge.

Ive also just read most of the advice on the first page of this section again, and I really cant find any dangerous, or even bad advice. In fact, its a mine of good information

I will be fitting 17" wheels with 225/45/17 tyres. these are within 40mm of the rolling radius of the original wheels and tyres.

I hope the sidewall rating is 97 minimum as required by the manufacturer and you regear your speedo to read within the tolerance allowed.

As regards lowering the ride height of a vehicle to improve its handling by lowering its center of gravity, well yes in theory that is true but the effect is minimal on its own as you MUST alter the suspension geometry as well to have proper effect as the castor, camber and bump steer calculations all have to be redone. Not easy on a T25. I did a paper on this subject for my masters some years ago which I might publish on this site to aid and assist.

Anyway if you stick three 14 stone beer buddies in the back you will alter your CofG far more than by a 60mm drop in ride height.

The simple fact is that by lowering the ride height of a car, or any wehicle, you lower its centre of gravity, and improve its handling.

Incorrect - You would almost certainly increase it's ultimate roadholding ability on a smooth road by lowering the c.g. - but not necessarily its handling. In fact, it's quite possible to seriously upset the car's handling by altering the roll-centres front and rear differently, consequently the roll-axis changes - something that fundamentally determines the understeer/ oversteer characterstic. With unequal length wishbone front suspension, most of the steering angles might be changed too, and camber and bump-steer are usually two things that do change.
NB. I'm not saying you are producing unsafe characteristics, but its possible, certainly oversteer at the limit is something to avoid.

By fitting stiffer or ideally adjustable damping you reduce body roll and improve response.

Incorrect - damping doesn't affect steady-state body roll, it affects damping of suspension bump and rebound (and can alter dynamic roll-rates). It can and does affect understeer/ oversteer (stiffer at the front mitigates towards understeer and vice-versa at the back). For the same reason damping affects bump-adhesion when cornering (tolerance of unsmooth roads), but not in a straightforward manner. Overdamped suspension increases NVH and depending on the road and your sensibilities, can be even more tiring to drive behind than underdamped.

Larger lower profile wheels and tyres inprove steering response, and reduce flex in the sidewall of tyres.

Yes, true - and depending on choice, could increase unsprung weight as well as reduce it - requiring those better dampers. Also can reduce acceleration and brake performance (rotational inertia), as well as in excess, produce an over-tyred vehicle, being less refined and tiring to drive over long distances

Its quite possible a lot of the changes in vehicle and steering geometry from such modifications will cancel out, they often fortunately do, producing better roadholding together with improved handling.
It's equally possible that they won't - producing at one extreme or other, a less-safe or even dangerous response, something the manufacturer has spent a lot of time engineering out.

This is why TUV in Germany are so prescriptive and cautious in allowing any such modifications without approval than here, why more and more some insurance companies are wanting to know about such mods - and maybe one reason Ormsby made his comments?

tyres are rated at 730kg, which I'm sure will cover the weight. Although its not a requirement of the manufacturer, its a recommendation. Its the construction and use regulations that require it.

Speedo is fine, well in 2%. Oh just noticed i said rolling radius withing 40mm, i meant circumferance! 40mm difference in radius would be cause for concern.

I still cant find any advice offered here where people are putting anything over safety. In fact its refreshing to see a website related to anything remotely automotive and custom where safety is considered at all! I suspect thats due to the type of vehicles discussed, and the uses they are put to

Can I ask what website the wiring information for the poor chaps camper came from? was it a T25 or VW site? I use a few VW forums, and a fire in someones pride and joy usually gets a mention, although its usually an older van than ours

I still cant find any advice offered here where people are putting anything over safety.

Read my previous post...

and a fire in someones pride and joy usually gets a mention, although its usually an older van than ours

Fires in T25s are not uncommon at all, and where they age,without refurbed ancillary systems, will increase.

I wouldn't focus on it too much, but pretty sure we get to hear of 3 or 4 a year. In the last few months I remember two of our members have had fires.